A conversation has gotten under way about Lee and Amanda’s relationship over the course of the whole show – rather than focusing on just one episode.. so here is a thread for this conversation to continue and not get lost!
I’ve added the images!The conversation, [started in the To Catch a Mongoose thread (Season Two, Episode 1)] is as follows:
Submitted on 2012/07/16 at 12:12 pm |
I know I’m getting ahead of myself here, but have you ever considered that the “cover kiss” in Ship of Spies shocked Lee so much less because of how he was responding to Amanda than how intensely she was responding to him. I think he felt a whole lot of lovin’ in that kiss! All that pent-up devotion/desire building over a season-and-a-half.
Cindy Davis wrote:
Submitted on 2012/07/16 at 12:31 pm |
Paula – HMMMMM, that is interesting to consider. The kiss certainly knocked Lee off his equilibrium. I love the tag when she was basically laughing at him.
Submitted on 2012/07/16 at 12:53 pm |
Paula, that is a fascinating theory–I never thought of this possibility at all! I’ll just have to re-watch the pivotal scene with your theory in mind. (Twist my arm, twist my arm…) She certainly leans forward for one more kiss as he’s drawing back. (Okay, I may have re-watched this scene a time or two already!) Thanks for sharing this intriguing idea.
Submitted on 2012/07/16 at 12:56 pm |
Oh, I just saw your comment, Cindy, after I posted my previous one. I love the tag, too. I can practically hear her thinking, “You can just keep telling yourself that, buddy…but I know better.”
Submitted on 2012/07/16 at 9:47 pm |
I think Amanda loves Lee at this point, but not “in love” with Lee. She loves him as a person. I don’t remember which of you said it (or where), but someone said that at some point in late season 1, Amanda finally got a handle on her crush on Lee and decided that they were only going to be co-workers. That comment spoke volumes to me. She knows she isn’t what he is looking for in a girlfriend and has accepted that.
I don’t see that same loving attitude from Lee, here (ETA: in To Catch a Mongoose), though. He certainly cares for Amanda’s well being. I’m not sure I’d call it love. He’s always felt protective of her because he’s the reason she’s in the spy biz to begin with. He also cares for her as a friend. Love? not yet…
Submitted on 2012/07/17 at 8:17 am |
Hi, Melissa. I’m enjoying your posts, and I agree with you about Amanda probably deciding she and Lee will be friends and work partners by early S2, although I think she might harbor a little stray hope that he will come around to wanting a fuller life than he has now–she’s a hopeful person who tends to see the potential in people, especially Lee. I also think that she is in love with him by mid-S2, but tries not to show it and probably tries not to feel it. As for Lee, I think he does love Amanda but it’s a basic sort of love with only a few elements at this point, mainly intense protectiveness and attraction (emotional as well as physical). He will do almost anything, including committing treason, to rescue her or keep her safe–more than he would do for anyone else, IMO. His jealousy is one of the clearest markers of his attraction; people aren’t jealous when a person they think of only as a friend or co-worker dances with another man or fixes his tie. His actions and some of his words suggest that how much she means to him, and these come from the scripts, of course, but it’s BB’s acting that really makes me believe that Lee loves Amanda even in S1.
His expressions when he sees Amanda dancing with Delano, when he’s confronting Delano about the poison used on Amanda, when he’s holding her in his arms after trading her for the Soviet agent, and when she hugs him after he “returns from the dead” all communicate (to me anyway), that he loves her. He does not recognize the significance of what he feels and says and does yet, but then, he’s really surprised by Amanda and by his intense reaction to her. He’s also out of practice in loving anyone and not looking for a genuine romantic relationship at all. Amanda really comes out of the blue for him. IMHO!
Submitted on 2012/07/17 at 11:43 am |
(edited out off topic content of comment)..I will share some thoughts on it once we have a thread on it [and reply to your posts ].
BTW- Melissa it was me who said Amanda had to get over her crush of Lee – my interpretation is that the episode ‘weekend’ is very much about this!!
Submitted on 2012/07/17 at 10:58 pm |
RedGold – you give me some thoughts to ponder. I’ll have to think about it. Lee certainly is jealous and probably hasn’t put enough thought into it to understand why. We see his attraction to Amanda, but he doesn’t see it. Your comment: “He does not recognize the significance of what he feels and says and does yet, but then, he’s really surprised by Amanda and by his intense reaction to her. He’s also out of practice in loving anyone and not looking for a genuine romantic relationship at all. Amanda really comes out of the blue for him.” is right on the money.
Submitted on 2012/07/18 at 1:36 am |
I have never found jealousy appealing in real life, but I like Lee’s jealousy because it shows his attraction toward Amanda so clearly. His denials and rationalizations are all for naught; he just can’t seem to help “acting like a jealous person.” And Amanda sees that emotion and also what’s behind it, I think. There are some delightful jealous moments in this episode [ETA: episode is to catch a mongoose], even though Lee must realize that Amanda is not interested in Connie romantically. He doesn’t want other unattached men around her, period!
In addition to “jealous Lee,” I’ve also been thinking about “solicitous Lee.”
Here are a few examples:
“Whatsa matter? You cold?” (“Filming Raul”)
“Whatsa matter? Aren’t you hungry?” (“Weekend”)
“Whatsa matter? Your feet hurt?” (“…Mongoose”)
And those are just the “What’s the matter?” inquiries. Lee is certainly observant where Amanda’s comfort and welfare are concerned. That’s due to all of his spy training relating to noting details, I suppose. : )
That’s the comments so far on this subject.. look forward to discussing this more as we work our way through the episodes!
Edited to add: I thought I might post links to posts as they come up, which look at Lee and Amanda’s relationship – and where they are at.. LOL you could say this is in every episode! 😉 tee hee.. but I am thinking here of the big moments, the very revealing moments .. I realise this is a matter of opinion though, so if there is an episode or post not listed which you would like listed just let me know and I’ll add it! 🙂
Affair at Bromfield Hall and again here.
Brunettes Are In
I have nothing but love and respect for Lee and Amanda.
Welcome Amanda Purl!!!
I’d say you are in good company here 🙂
Welcome, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts as we walk through the final episodes of season 4, if you would like to share 🙂
For people who love Lee and Amanda the way I do. Check out SMKseason five project and see just how much in love they are. You won’t be sorry!
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Hi Guys.. Writing this comment as the walk through ‘Burn out’ comes to an end.
There has been lots of discussion about Lee, Amanda and Love in Burn Out.. so I’ll add that episode to the list.
If we can- lets try not to look ahead in the story too much.. I think it helps us to focus on the current story and explore it better.. I’m surprised at the new insights this perspective has provided!!
I think there is real value in waiting to have our questions answered as the story progresses. I don’t need to know all the answers.. or have clear in my mind when is Amanda’s moment of realisation that she loves Lee? or does she even have one? I am happy to wait for the story to unfold as we progress – and consider what has been revealed about the characters so far.. I hope you’ll find this rewarding too 🙂
Anyway, hopefully I have encouraged you all to not focus on what is ahead – and relish the present story.
We are coming into a very dense time of relationship movement in Lee and Amanda’s story 🙂 Soon, we’ll be able to freely discuss the events of early season 3 🙂
Morley | May 30, 2013 at 12:36 pm | Reply | Edit
[reposted by iwsod from https://justwalkwithme.com/2013/05/28/4-season-two-episode-15-a-relative-situation-scarecrow-and-mrs-king/#comments ]
“In Love”, I have these thoughts running around in my head, bear with me.
I am thinking prepositions… Love is this thing that started growing in Lee and Amanda early on, maybe even the first episode when Amanda was compelled to leave her protected life and go to that Cooking Lady and save his life or maybe even earlier, and Lee… well definitely by the time he carried her down the Quickie Chickie guy’s stairs. These were selfless decisions that they both made in favor of the other’s well being and that, in my book, is choosing “love.” Maybe not romantic love, but it is love. And they allowed this love to grow in repeated choices to choose their growing friendship over selfish preservation as the seasons went on. I think Amanda made a conscience decision to not allow Romantic love to carry her away from the growing friendship in season one during Weekend. Lee on the other hand has had trouble until recently even acknowledging that he has this “love” resident in him. And I think as Lee begins to acknowledge this “love,” Amanda fortifies herself in this “friendship love.” As far as them both being “in” love. I guess that would come when they both decide to dwell “in” the love that they both acknowledge they have for each other, instead of denying or categorizing love, instead of skipping “around” it, or any other preposition other than “in.” It comes when they let their relating come from it and let it run its course and I don’t think they come to that place together until late season 3. This is way ahead of where we are right now, but we keep asking about “being in love” and it seems strange to me because I don’t see them as “falling” or “tripping” in to love, like they got smacked up side the head and don’t know what hit them. I think they grew into it. Does that make sense?
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In reply to Morley’s copied comment:
Hi Morley! Okay I’ve had a chance to revisit this whole idea.. and everyone’s comments again.. it’s been a while!
I see I commented on 29 November 2012 and pretty much laid out where I was at. I do pretty much feel the same way today about how we identify or define ‘ inlove’ – probably because I haven’t thought deeply about it for awhile! LOL!!! I do find as I continue our walk through the episodes that I am always asking myself: Is Lee in love now?? is Amanda in love now?? Is there a reason why I think they are not?? this is always in the back of my mind.. is it like that for everyone else too??
Now we are up to the episode ‘A Relative Situation’ it would be really wonderful to hear what you all think of this!!
There might be some newcomers who haven’t yet come across this thread -I hope you will enjoy it and feel free to share with us all how you think about their love journey!
Yep I agree Morley, the love thing started from… Just Walk with me! 😉
I double agree about Amanda making a conscious decision not to allow romantic love to carry her away in season one – For me, I am wondering if she might be struggling with this again now, as we head into the second part of season two.. It’s starting to pop up more again!! [can’t wait to get to DOA!!] ‘Amanda fortifies herself with friendship love’? whooo that’s a good idea!!! It will be interesting to see if you incorporate that idea into your theory about Amanda’s dissociation and her hair don’t! 😉
Go ahead to season 3 if you like Morley – I won’t draw conclusions yet but others may wish to… It’s fun to discuss it! And.. alot of how we see things will be shaped by how we are defining love in each given situation we are talking about I suppose… it gets complicated!
I would definitely agree that they are on the path towards love.. and have been all along.. and as of A Relative Situation – I think they are getting much closer to that fork in the road [I do have an episode in mind for this, but I’ll keep it vague so you can’t hold me to it 😉 ] – the junction where they each have to decide are they going to be the loves of their lives?? or will it maybe not?? well.. we know what they chose! 🙂 but.. the choice having been made – I think they still need to journey along that path to finally reach the final destination: of well.. season 4! 🙂 I hope I haven’t gotten too ‘esoteric’ there.. if I have just skip what I said and put it down to too much coffee 😉 LOL! 🙂
I agree with your idea Morley, that there are many times they each say a little ‘yes’ to love. but maybe.. just maybe.. there is a big moment where they each know this is the person for them, and they don’t ever want anyone else.. maybe?? I am hoping together as we walk through the eps we can work all this out.. and share our different ideas 🙂
Okay I have prattled on long enough! Lovely to hear your thoughts as always Morley! byeeeeee
Maybe I should wait to write these thoughts, but it seems that Amanda was the one in season 3 to push ahead and want a romantic relationship (she almost tells him that she loved him in Utopia Now. She was the one starting the kiss that didn’t happen in Dead Men Leave No Trails) and Lee was holding back a little. But then in season 4 after they get engaged it was Lee that pushed to get married and Amanda that was holding back. But I think that at some point in S4 she said, “Loving you was easy marrying you scares me.” Or something close. IMHO I think that she is afraid of another marriage failure. Sorry if I brought this up too soon!
iwsod, I had no idea this post was on the blog!! I need to explore more around here. What a great idea though!
I have to agree that they grew into love. They never started out to change each other but accepted the other as they are and from that were really great friends (best friends). I agree that Amanda loves Lee as a friend (season 2) and is holding off on the romantic love. IMHO I think she would rather be friends and keep a relationship with Lee than risk something romantic and it not work out (she already did that with Joe). Really they both come with baggage!
In response to the first post over in the Relative Situation thread, Bjo made a comment about transparency and I really liked it. She pointed out that as the series goes on Lee becomes more transparent and Amanda seems to become less. I found that interesting. I just wanted to get that thought over here.
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oh, thanks, Morley!
Lee & Amanda’s relationship snapshot from my perspective:
Season One is friendship growing.
Season Two is friendship deepening, and love beginning to creep in.
Season Three is love beginning to grow.
Season Four is love strengthening and cementing the relationship.
Much has been said about Lee’s back-and-forth treatment of Amanda and how it’s not a smooth transition if watched in broadcast order. I have to say that I never found this strange because when my husband and I were dating, our relationship was somewhat that way. I was waiting to see where he wanted the relationship to go, but I knew that I loved him enough to wait around for a bit. Honestly, I was about ready to hit him over the head by the time he finally was ready to admit he loved me. 🙂
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Hi Debilyn! your progression sounds good!
I will just add that although I talk about the episode order, and suggest changes – I don’t think they completely change Lee’s back and forth behaviour, I think that is still there – though in a less confounding way ( at least for me) – I tend to focus on the work relationship, as it is not completely subtext and easier to see the progression – at least at this point of the show.. the way Lee sees Amanda can be consistent, but the way he treats her can vary. Does that make sense? but Lee’s attitude around Brunettes is so vastly different – that I find altering the episode order around it makes more sense of his attitude to her work, how he works alone – and his acceptance that she does have a contribution to make, and that she is his partner. For me, these two issues make the smk world very different depending on which side of Brunettes you are looking at.. There aren’t many episodes in SMK where I would say that.
but just thought I would clarify, I agree it is normal that Lee would treat Amanda in a friendly way and then be all cranky again is a part of the confusion he feels.. in a single episode we can see Lee go back and forth, back and forth – like in this episode.. and yeah I agree, I don’t think anyone could try and make Lee’s journey a smooth path in the one direction..
Gotta run! byeeee
Yeah, I get that IWSOD, and I understand what you’re saying and see your point. I do think that for Lee and Amanda, the personal and professional feelings are tied together – which is why I’m not one to complain about the back-and-forth stuff. But, I can see why others don’t agree. That’s fine. It’s just fun to discuss what we think and why – whether we agree or not, it’s all good from my standpoint. 🙂
I’ll admit I’ve watched in other orders suggested by folks. It’s fun to see things from different perspectives.
Hi Debilyn! I love to hear your thoughts – whether we end up agreeing or not 🙂 I love to see things from a different perspective too.. which is why I realised: Oh yeah! I hadn’t said that I too see there is back and forth in their relationship – you helped me to be reminded of that 🙂 thanks!
Yeah I have never thought ‘Oh Bromfield Hall should be before Brunettes’ before – you’re right it does give an episode a new perspective when seen in a different position! [I am suddenly loving Bromfield rather than tolerating it for the Thames scene as I have in the past]
I have never watched in a different order – not yet! because I’m going through here on airing order ( though I will grumble the whole way through haaaa) – I’d like to go back and watch in people’s new orders..
If you have an alternative order you could post it here if you like. byeeee!
One thought about Leslie… even that was compartmentalized because she travelled, so she would never be in his day to day life (which I thought was convenient for Lee, because what he really wanted was Amanda in his day to day life). But I don’t like to talk about Leslie too much, I think she was just a blip on his radar screen really.
I really enjoy your blog, thanks for putting so much time into it for all of us, it is a great way to have a break from all the business of our days to sit here and enjoy one of our favorite shows with others. Fun!
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Iwsod, your speculations in your posts from Affair at Bromfield Hall have me thinking about that confounding question again: What is love, and when did Lee and Amanda have it for each other? First, I have to say, I tend to recoil at the idea of “falling” in or out of love, because I think something that just “happens” is not love, but something less. Maybe it’s lust, or attraction, or endearment, but not love. I have a sweet little book my husband gave me for my birthday that has a quote in it that sums up my idea about love: Love is what is left when everything else burns away.
Love isn’t simply a feeling, or a confidence that one is fully respected or appreciated. It is a decision to desire the good for the beloved and to act toward that end, a decision that is made over and over, every day, in every season, for a lifetime. So in regards to SMK, my question would be, when did Lee and when did Amanda begin to make that decision to love, in the fullest sense of the term?
Now that we’re at Bromfield Hall, I think I can safely say that Amanda truely does love Lee, and the fact that he persists in being relatively obnoxious toward her is further evidence that what she is doing is loving him. When I consider the sacrifice she makes in watching his back, risking her own safety, compromising her role in her household, and never really knowing whether he’ll ever come to recognize how much of herself she gives to him, I don’t see how that could be anything less than love.
Sadly, I don’t think he loves her fully just yet. It’s one-sided. It’s not that Lee is withholding something from her so much as I don’t think he’s capable of the level of love she has to give. Blame his upbringing or his cavalier attitude toward women up to this point or a combination of both, but I don’t think Lee understands mid-season 2 what it means to love until it hurts. But he’s learning. And he’s come quite a ways from the early season 1 Lee. I do agree that Bromfield Hall belongs before Brunettes Are In, simply because I see Lee learning in BAI, if not how to love Amanda, at least how to tread lightly on the evidence of love for himwhich he can no longer overlook. She’s got his back, and whether he wants to admit it or not, she’s become confident by the end of BAI that she’s qualified for that role.
Now, this isn’t the end of my thoughts on the topic, but I have spoken long enough so I will end here for a night. 🙂
Paula, I agree with you about your definition of love and how Lee and Amanda grow into it. But I think what holds Lee back, or keeps him from acknowledging it, however one would classify his response, is fear. I think a deep seated fear due to all that happened to him in his younger years is what shapes all of his responses. It was his response to interpersonal relationships, and what kept him in shallow and compartmentalized relationships with women. He could only relate to women in a sexual way or a professional manner. His relationship with Amanda forces him to integrate all these aspects of his life. But what I love most about this series and the relationship is that it is so redemptive. As they encounter all those moments where they have to choose how to respond they ultimately choose to love. I know that Lee is not as quick to choose it as Amanda is, but even when he gives into the fearful responses he grows and learns. First he chooses a new response to being attracted to a woman, he chooses to respect her. Then he chooses to pursue a friendship, then a partnership and it only grows from there. Each of these choices only lays a stronger foundation for a mutual and deep love to grow in two lives that were so hurt and self protective before they met. I think that is what I really enjoy the most.
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Wow!! I found your post very insightful Morley!!! Thanks for sharing!!
This compartmentalisation you mention is really interesting! It also fits very well with the idea of Lee wearing a mask with people.. alot of his girlfriends not knowing what job he does..
I don’t remember the exact words, but Lee says something about how great it is Leslie can know all about his work – because she has the security clearance – As Lee grows, his tendency to compartmentalise diminishes, and his need for someone to know him ( all of him, not just compartments) is finally acknowledged.. and truly met: In Amanda!! 🙂
Oh dear.. I need to go do real life stuff now! tee hee.. all this talk of Lee and Amanda and love has set me up for the day nicely! 😉 byeeee everyone!!!
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Hi Paula! and Hi Everyone!!!
What a fabulous subject to ponder huh!
I like your definition of Love Paula.. sounds good to me! there are different kinds of love.. so again that complicates things 😉 though I think when we discuss whether Lee and Amanda are ‘in love’ we are referring to the romantic ‘love you till the day I die’ kind of love.
Yeah just to complicate things, we have the love of a friend involved.. Amanda loves Lee, as a friend from the start!
And.. to really complicate things, we have ‘love’ the verb involved! 😉 where Amanda might love Lee, caring for him, seeing the good in him, being loyal.. but (IMHO) that doesn’t mean she also has to be ‘in love’ with him.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Paula, I find it really helps to clarify my own thinking to hear other’s views, whether we agree or not..though I think agreement is not usually so black and white it is more nuanced: we agree on a lot but have little differences here and there which make things interesting! haaa
I have really put off coming to an absolute conclusion for when Amanda was in love with Lee or when Lee was in love with Amanda ( ok talking about the ‘in love’ type of love now! ) and I am trying to keep an open mind as I work my way through the episodes..
A moment like the Bromfield Hall scene by the Thames will come up and I think – is she is love now?? but.. so far.. something holds me back from coming to that conclusion about Amanda.. What is it that holds me back?
I think it might be this whole episode order thing!
Because I see Bromfield Hall as being before Brunettes, I don’t see Amanda as being in Love.
For me, Brunettes Are in opens the way for Love to develop in Amanda. ( Romantic love.. not friendship love) Because, Amanda needed to confront the reality of her work with Lee and her choices to be able to really fall in love.
Also, I hesitate to embrace the idea that Lee could be so dismissive, sometimes insensitive and well sometimes a little insulting (!) and lack respect for Amanda and her work, and yet, Amanda could fall in love with him anyway.. [Too much of an ‘I dream of Genie’ vibe!! Yes Master!! 😉 ]
I think this would hold Amanda back from truly falling – but.. again, this is dealt with in the fabulous episode: Brunettes Are in!!
So.. I guess I could say, until Brunettes are in, I don’t think Amanda is free to fall in love.. but after Brunettes are in – her love for Lee grows little by little.. but I won’t get ahead of myself here.. this is my impression at the moment.. I am keeping an open mind as I move onward through season 2..and read your thoughts on this!
[Though I will add: I see A class act, and Three faces of emily as being before Brunettes also.. I’ll post the production order of season 2 after Bromfield Hall is finished.]
Oh and just because I am not drawing conclusions beyond where we are up to- doesn’t mean you all can’t! go for it- if you want to!! 🙂
I will sign off there for now.. and leave Lee to others to discuss – [I find Amanda to be a tougher, and therefore more interesting, nut to crack! :)] plus you’ve already heard lots from me on all this in my posts (blah blah blaahh! 😉 ).. and you know I don’t see Lee as ‘in Love’ yet..
Paula please get back to us with the rest of your thoughts when you are able to! I think there is nothing better than sitting down to a nice cup of coffee and reading everyone’s ideas on Lee and Amanda and when they fall in love.. Ohhh happy thoughts!!!!
What does everyone else think? byeee for now!!
I have to agree with Redgold. I think that Lee has always been intrigued by Amanda. Late in season 1, I think his feelings grew for her and he had an intense physical attraction towards her but he did not recognize them as such. After all, she was just a “frumpy housewife with a mortgage, two kids and a mom”. I think these were new feelings for him and he certainly wasn’t used to what he was experiencing when he was around her. After all, he was a playboy with 4 little black books who was more interested in the conquest than the relationship. Then along came Amanda and she just blew him away.
Hello Alma- Welcome!! Lovely to hear from you! Are you new to smk fandom? have I ‘met’ you around at all?
Thanks for sharing your take on Lee and Amanda’s relationship 😀
I have been a Bruce Boxleitner fan and an SMK fan since like forever! I’ve just never posted anything before. I am a soldier and spend my share of time deployed so I don’t get to do these things very often.
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Just thought I would point out.. on the blog home page – if you open the category selector you will see a new category: ‘ Lee and Amanda Relationship’ this post is under this category.. so whenever you want to find this post.. all you need to do is open this category and it will be easy to find!
If there are any other topic kind of threads you are interested in. Cool! but you are going to need to write up a post about it yourself :p I can post it no problem..but I am time pressed and want to stay on track with the walk through the episodes..
So I look forward to hopefully revisiting this post regularly, and hearing your ideas, as we go through the episodes and discover more about our favourite duo! 🙂
Feel free to share what you think.. there is no right or wrong here.. just different perspectives 🙂
Enjoy! byeee for now!