Hi Everyone!! Some love it.. some loathe it.. but thanks to some very creative original airing orders we are left with the likelihood the first five episodes of season 3 are needing to be reordered!
This conversation got started over at Nedlindger’s HERE, and here on JWWM we have discussed this a little through our walk through the first five episodes, and also in this post focused on the order of Wizard and Over the Limit.
Who here is happy to stay with the airing order?
Feel like sorting this out is as much fun as having your teeth pulled? Well.. rest assured – there are others who enjoy it and who have offered their suggested orders!
To recap, the original airing order was:
1. A lovely little affair
2. We’re off to see the wizard
3. Over the limit
4. Tail of the dancing weasel
5. Welcome to America Mr Brand
From walking through all 5 episodes, I’d say the episodes were all filmed together, written together and looking at major changes and swaps in the scripts – it seems it was a time of big changes and rewrites. All a big jumble! So props don’t seem like much help to me here (that big fish on Billy’s wall appears and disappears).
The production order doesn’t help either! [though I like that it puts Mr Brand so early]
It has the following:
1. Welcome to America Mr Brand
2. Over the limit
3. We’re off to see the wizard
4. A lovely little affair
5. Tail of the dancing weasel (which clearly is intended to air before wizard and ALLA)
The introduction of the Q bureau in Dancing weasel seems clear,
but we see it earlier in the original airing order in ALLA
(but not in scenes in ALLA where you usually would see it- like in the tag where Lee and Amanda sort Lee’s files- in Billy’s office?!)
and in Wizard, Billy calls Lee’s new office ‘the Q room’ and it seems like a voice over..
sooo I think the Q bureau is all a bit jumbled.. it doesn’t dictate the order, but I think it can be taken into consideration as obviously reordering is needed.
I knew the airing order was wrong.. but because I hadn’t watched the episodes before blogging I went with the consensus over at Nedlindger’s for which order to blog in – check it out if you like. I blogged in that order, but had not committed myself to that order, I wanted to walk through the episodes and then decide (a bit chicken and egg no? ).
Morley’s order, the order through which JWWM walked, is as follows:
1. Welcome to America Mr Brand
2. Over the limit
3. Tail of the dancing weasel
4. We’re off to see the wizard
5. A lovely little affair
Thanks again Morley for sharing your order with us!!!
How we go about choosing the order we like will vary from person to person. I tend to stick with the airing order unless there is a good reason to change it -say if I think the story can’t make sense otherwise – you know?
So I am liking this order for season three:
1. Welcome to America Mr Brand
2. Tail of the dancing weasel
3. We’re off to see the wizard
4. Over the limit
5. A lovely little affair
I’ve already discussed why I see no reason to change the original airing order and put Wizard after over the limit- I think the story works great with Wizard first…
I think Amanda giving Lee the rose in Over the Limit is something I can’t overlook – given how significant/traumatic the smell of roses are to Lee in Wizard- which he heals by the end of that episode. Plus I don’t have to find a way to overlook it because I love the story with wizard first! See the previous wizard/otl post if you’re interested in reading more discussion on this.. and the episodes themselves.
I have always felt OTL..
should come before ALLA,..
because Amanda doesn’t know Lee isn’t seeing Leslie anymore at the end of OTL and the start of ALLA (IMHO), but it seems clear Leslie is history in the tag of ALLA when Lee and Amanda start to date (but they just don’t call it a date!!).
I think during the original airing order, seeing the tag of ALLA and then having the Leslie surprise was horrendous!! Very glad that has been dealt with!
When I see them dating has probably influenced my view of the order too.
I’ve really enjoyed having Mr Brand first- I think it’s a great start to the season and really lays a foundation for Amanda’s skills as an agent to develop further!
and loving ALLA as episode five!!
These two changes alone make a big improvement in my enjoyment.. How about you?
Soooo anyone like to share their order they’ve gone with and if you like-why??
BTW- don’t worry there’s no need to convince anyone of anything here – we can come up with different orders and have different preferences no problem! I’m happy to discuss my thoughts but have no motivation to change anyone’s mind!
Back to the airing order now for the rest of season 3!
****August will see JWWM on a go slow! ****
Many of us are away on holidays etc. and it’s probably a good thing to slow the walk down for just a month..
Still, coming up next, we start our walk through Sour Grapes!!! (we’ll start at a crawl, but be back to our regular pace in no time!)
Plus, we’ll be pausing our crawl (lol!) through Sour Grapes to enjoy two posts Learjet has written enjoying Dotty’s character!! Good times ahead!! Byeee for now!
I’m not sure how well it’s going to work because I haven’t actually tried watching them like this yet, but I came up with an experimental way of doing S3 that I want to try based on how and when they’re close to each other and when they aren’t.
My rough thinking is this:
1. Mr. Brand – No scientific reason other than A) I’m not a fan of the ep and B) I don’t remember it well enough, but I keep seeing everyone else put it first!
2. Utopia Now. We see no indications as to whether this is pre or post Q Bureau, and Amanda makes a big move that Lee seems clueless on reciprocating at the end. Which makes me think it’s before the dock on OTL.
3. A Lovely Little Affair. Lee hasn’t responded to Amanda’s overtures so she takes a chance on a date with another man but realizes she can’t go there. And her waiting pays off because Lee makes an overture. I think this is pre Q Bureau because Lee & Faber don’t go upstairs till late and the set up seems different. The desk seems closer to the wall with the vault and Lee faces the opposite way. I think Faber complained about Lee getting distracted & Billy sent them to an office where the person had gone home for the day. The next morning, we see Faber back in the bullpen.
4. Over The Limit. This seems to be pre Q Bureau as Lee comes to the bullpen rather than going upstairs and there’s no indication Billy had summoned him. I rationalize the rose as he’s learned to hide his reaction as an agent, but that he excuses himself shortly after to the washroom to compose himself. They did cut away pretty quick. Lee has scared himself by the overture to Amanda and has decided to pull back and try dating someone else. (This is my best guess on how to explain the whiplash with the forward and back. It makes more sense for Lee to pull back than for Amanda to have had the date with Chamberlain after Lee asks her out on the dock.)
5. Dancing Weasel – And here we start the Q Bureau. They’re also close but not the team we see later yet, as they try to get back to solid footing after the Leslie detour. Amanda seems surprised by what Lee told Harry about her.
6. Oz Ep – The dock date and then what happened with Harry has brought them closer, and this really seals the deal with their friendship. And then comes the rose.
At this point, I go with the strong friendship phase: Reach For The Sky, J. Edgar’s Ghost, Flight To Freedom, & Sour Grapes as the bond between them just keeps getting stronger and they seem closer than ever. Things are set up to lead to more, as witnessed by Amanda daring the romantic blackmail on JEG and Lee about to kiss Amanda in the SG tag, when along comes Joe in Wrong Way Home and things come to a stop. Then I think Wrong Number fits really well after here as they try to get back to the footing they were on before. It explains the tension between them in a few scenes, but Amanda is still trying to make it clear that Joe is her past and she’s still open to Lee for her future with her rating flirtation. And it makes a nice bridge for how things left off on WWH and what people have already talked about with them trying to get back to their old footing on Fast Food For Thought, which I would put next.
Then Playing For Keeps. FFFT has made Lee realize Amanda is putting Joe behind her and now working without her has really opened his eyes to just how much she means to him.
From here we slowly build the friendship up again as they get closer and also try to figure out the romance part with each other and how the other is feeling. Lee lets Amanda in to another side of himself with Pharoah’s Engineer, they start to flirt more with 3 Little Spies but are still holding back a bit (hence Lee’s “You have a cute nose,” which he no doubt kicked himself for later), and The Triumverate, as they both try to figure out how to handle the sudden closeness in the hotel, not to mention realizing how much they care about each other with that last hug.
And then comes the crisis with The Eyes Have It. Amanda gets a rude wakeup call with just how it would feel to lose Lee and Lee is finally realizing without question just how much Amanda cares about him by staying at the hospital overnight when he had the concussion. He then takes the next step and declares her a part of his “family.” I think they had some important conversations during that five day sick leave!
At this point, we are firmly into Couples Territory and the romance starts to build. First a kiss on the cheek and Lee calling Amanda “special” on One Bear Dances. Then the date night and near kiss on Dead Men Leave No Trails. Then the open affection at the end of Boy Who Could Be King and finally, THE KISS, on All The World’s A Stage.
How did I do?
Thank you for pointing out that the Q-room scene in A Lovely Little Affair seems like it took place before Lee took over the Q-Bureau. That always bugged me, because it did suggest the episode was out of order. I hadn’t noticed the differences with the furniture set-up, and the fact that Lee appears to have been working downstairs for the majority of the episode does make it seem pre-Q.
The reason this makes me happy is because I have always thought A Lovely Little Affair was PERFECT as the Season 3 opener! I am surprised to see that I’m the only person here who seems to think this way, and also surprised to learn that the episode wasn’t written in that order. I think they decided early on that this would be the season opener, because it is perfect for getting new viewers acquainted with the characters and catching up the existing fans on where everyone is now. After the part in Rome, that extended scene in Amanda’s house introduces us so nicely to Amanda, Philip, Jamie and Dotty. We learn that Philip is now a full-on teenager with “girlfriends”(!). And then Lee coming to the door, and Amanda noting that he shouldn’t just show up at her house unannounced — it all just feels very “Welcome back to SMK!” to me. Francine and Billy are introduced early as well and their respective job responsibilities also made clear.
And then later, we have the wonderful bedroom scene, which helps set the new “romantic” mood that we can expect from Season 3. It doesn’t feel out of place to me at all.
I’ve said before, though, that I am just not one for reordering the episodes. I like them the way they were aired. The only reordering that I do when watching SMK myself is to switch Any Number Can Play and Santa’s Got a Brand New Bag, due to the very obvious continuity error there. The rest, I prefer to leave as-is. But even though I don’t agree with making changes, I definitely think that all of the thought you put into your episode order makes sense (with the exception of Utopia Now, which I definitely think needs to occur after OTL at a minimum and really was perfect where it was; I disagree that Lee seemed “clueless” about what was brewing between him and Amanda at the end of that episode — I think he was just offering her an “out” while privately freaking out a little bit). I think it’s very interesting to read your analysis and everyone else’s as well!
I have binge-watched my way using JWWM revised orders for Season 1 & 2 (which makes the flow of the show fabulous!) and am now starting Season 3. So for the first time trying a new order for Season 3, I have kinda combined Morley’s order and Iwsod’s. I am going with:
1. Mr. Brand
2. Dancing Weasel
3. Over the Limit
Iwsod, I agree that Lee’s issue with roses in Wizard are a big deal. But I just feel like he and Amanda are at a deeper level in Wizard than OTL (I also see that look exchange about the 4 black books in a significant way, and I cannot picture Leslie coming after that talk they share at the restaurant) and it dawned on me while watching OTL this time… I know the scene in OTL where she “flirts” with Lee by handing him a rose faded out quickly, which frustrates us because we don’t get a lot of time seeing that moment. But what if that was on purpose? What if there were edits to trim that scene to de-emphasize the rose moment since production order had OTL first? Does that make sense? In other words, maybe they were intending to air OTL first and the rose scene kinda threw a kink into things, so they tried to withdraw the scene as quickly as possible for the rose issue to not be an issue….little did they know we’d be analyzing every word and look 35 years later frame by frame! Ha! But then they just ultimately aired Wizard first anyway. Hmm. Just a thought.
I also agree it’s so interesting to read everyone’s viewpoints on episode order and respect and appreciate them!
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I’m one of those folks for whom episode order isn’t really a biggie. Mostly because my hubby and I had quite the roller-coaster relationship before we tied the knot. 🙂 That being said, there is some value at looking at the progression of Lee and Amanda’s relationship, especially here in the first five eps of S3.
I agree that Mr. Brand seems to be a first step, and I really feel that Weasel is the next step in the game. As to the other three, I find there is value in almost any order, though I do like OTL, Wizard, then ALLA.
If I’m going to analyze these episodes, I have to start with Burn Out and MBF. I think Lee realized a lot about his feelings for Amanda in those eps. He discovered she knew him well – she guessed he might be undercover in Burn Out; they played off each other well when he had to “shoot” her. He discovered that her presence was special to him, but he was more concerned about what she needed than what he needed – her resignation from the agency. This leads naturally into some introspection for him – during Mr. Brand and Weasel. (“You were spying on ME, Amanda – on ME.” hit him pretty hard, though it was in his best interest – Amanda-style.) From there, he was ready to ask her out on a tentative date in OTL, which gave him food for thought and drove his response to Amanda’s reaction to the black books in Wizard. (Okay, let me also state that I think the flower wasn’t an issue. He was focused on Amanda, and the rose got thrown away shortly after. I also think there were contacts as well as women in those books. Lee did have many relationships with women who “knew the score” and were as willing to have a fling as he was. I’m sure there were a few who wanted more, but I don’t think they really expected more.) ALLA has its value at the end with the especially revealing moment in the bedroom. Lee’s reaction after that touching moment (!) told me his mind was full of gobblygook and his feelings for Amanda were crystalized for him. Amanda’s reaction was an immediate coverup – physically and emotionally – of any feelings at the moment. She wants to believe, but is still hesitant. He wants to move forward, but is going slowly out of fear that Amanda might bolt and run from the relationship totally. He doesn’t want to force anything or do any harm to what he has with Amanda – she means that much to him. While he knows it’s love, he’s not ready to admit it – not out loud – it’s still too new and scary.
Having said all that, I can understand where those with a different view point are coming from. That’s another part of why order isn’t a biggie to me, though I definitely enjoy reading everyone’s thoughts. I’m glad so many of you care so much about the loveliness of Amanda and Lee. It’s a part of why I enjoy SMK so much – the loyal, caring fans, many of which seem to have found their way to this blog. 🙂
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Like what you’ve written here Debilyn, especially explaining Lee and Amanda’s reactions during that critical moment in ALLA.
You know in the old days most TV shows did not have a story arc. The first season was interchangeable with the fourth season except for different clothes and maybe the kids getting older. Usually it was soap operas (daytime or night) that had any kind of continuing story. Babylon 5 was one of the first TV series to have a definite beginning middle and end with a planned story arc. Nowadays it’s hard to find a show that does not have a seasonal story arc in addition to an overall story arc. Anybody see Battlestar Galactica (the 2004 version)? A very definite and defined story. That said I went back and forced, just forced myself 😉 to check out the first five episodes of season 3. Emotionally it just fits for me better that Wizard comes after OTL with ALLA as the fifth episode. I can see everybody’s points about other ideas and logic, but I’ve never been terribly logical 🙂 I do love how in-depth this discussion has been, it’s been really fascinating to follow. Cheers!
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The walkthrough has really helped make some sense of the episode order for me. I wasn’t sure about ALLA until we walked through it, but it does now seem like it should be the last of the 5. I’ve still got some ambiguity about the order of OTL and Wizard; I have a personal preference, but it does seem like there’s lots of contradicting evidence out there. Possibly in those two episodes, even more than the others, there was scene-swapping and re-writing going on which left things a little ambiguous.
I hear ya happy camper! I’m feel like I’m a bit saturated with the wizard/otl conversation so I’m going to wait six months – then watch the first five episodes.. and then come back here! lol I’ve even set an alarm on my calendar to remind me lol!!!
All good points happy camper! At least we all seem to pretty much end up in the same place with the characters 🙂
Great idea, iwsod! I did watch all 5 last night, but forwarded through the parts that didn’t involve Lee and Amanda, so you could say it was imperfect research. I didn’t see anything glaring that led me to see anything differently as far as episode order goes, but I do feel like there is a lot of “noise” in my head and so it is hard to keep it all separate.
When your calendar alarm goes off, let me know! I’ll re-watch them then too!
I shall! the alarm is set for sometime in December 🙂
I agree with your episode order completely iwsod 🙂
I have been enjoying the discussions so far for Season 3 and look forward to the rest. This is my favorite Season out of the whole show!
I am so glad there are others out there besides me who find this discussion about the episode order fascinating! I still subscribe to Morley’s order (I have felt that way for years) thank you iwsod for “walking” in that sequence. I’ve never found the rose moment in OTL compelling enough to support another ordering but I may consider taking learjet5’s lead and watching them in iwsod’s order … learjet5 made some interesting points from her review.
One thing seems certain from all our discussions … we all believe the airing order felt “awkward.” Curious … how is it iwsod that you know what the production order was? I have heard you mention that a couple of times but never have gotten around to asking you about it.
I too am grateful for a slower pace in August. As I have posted before, this is the busy season for me at work and unfortunately, I keep falling behind in reading the posts. I am currently only behind by three but I like to go through all the comment (so not to miss any thing) and that can be time consuming. I am also working on my next fanfic which is sucking up what little amount of free time I do have. So iwsod, thank you for the slower pace to come! 🙂
I have a similar approach as you, iheartsmk. I keep falling behind in reading and commenting on posts because I like to go through all the comments so that I don’t miss any viewpoints. It is time consuming, especially on the posts that discuss the more meaningful scenes between Lee and Amanda. I think I am up to the bedroom scene in ALLA, but when I read and comment on that post, I want to know that I am going to have at least one hour of uninterrupted, quiet time which is hard to find in my house in the summer. I’ll also admit that I’ve not made it a priority because once it’s over, it’s over. Normally I like to bring things to closure, but this is a one-shot deal, so I’m okay with the waiting and doing some deep thinking on it…I’m still anticipating getting into that ALLA bedroom scene and reading and processing it and all the comments!
I know what you mean about reading all the comments BJo so you don’t miss any of the viewpoints. It is that sharing of ideas that drew me to this sight! It can be hard to find an uninterrupted moment but it is definitely worth the effort! 🙂
I agree the comments add to the enjoyment! I love them!
This is one reason why I try to keep discussion on topic – for people catching up reading through heaps of comments unrelated and about a conversation long over is a bit of a difficulty to get through.
Love to hear you are enjoying the show and enjoying hearing from us through our comments iheartsmk!
oh good! Glad the ‘go slow’ works for you too! 🙂
ALLA is such a special episode it would be a shame to rush through it.. there’s lots of smk love in the comments about ‘the bedroom scene’ that are wonderful to savour 🙂 enjoy!! and do share your thoughts if you like
[a tiny tip: just be sure to give them a little context so when we subscribers read them by email we know what you are referring to 🙂 – most of us here are subscribers]
Thanks iwsod for the tip about adding context to my responses when I post (how did I do? :-)). I just discovered how to get email alerts when someone posts something new :p This should help me keep up … I hope! 🙂
No worries iheartsmk – I’d say the best tip would be if you are commenting on an episode we have already walked through – write your comment like it’s an email you are sending – that way you explain what you are commenting on in the post or other comments.. (always lovely to get a reply to comments I think! 🙂 )
Oh great! it is very convenient to get emails rather than always return to the website. I find it especially helpful when reading comments on my phone – saves me logging on to the blog!
When I first got the DVDs I just watched them in the order presented and I had the same feeling as I did when I originally watched the series and when I saw it in reruns. The order seemed a bit off. It felt kind of like a yo-yo, everything was up and down. But I think that just as everyone sees various aspects of the show in different ways the same can be said about episode order.
It is nice to see everyone’s views and opinions as to why something could or should be a certain way and it just adds to our discussions. I like how we can look at the broader picture and also the finer points of each episode. I know that I offered up an opinion about the roses when we were on Wizard. My opinion was based on my reactions to a personal traumatic experience and how it affected me, but not everyone deals with trauma the same way or has the same reactions to it. My experience colored how I viewed the episode order. But I have enjoyed reading everyone’s reasons and rationale for their order preference.
In a way as we move forward I still think we can look still look at episode order if we are trying to find some sort of chronology because I still think a few eps are a bit off, but that is a later discussion. Also liking the slow down idea of August. We will be preparing to go back to school and there are quite a bit of changes upcoming at our school so I’m okay with a slower pace.
Oh hey, I forgot to say that I’m happy to have a crawl for August…it’ll give me more time to savor and enjoy all the posts on the blog and to catch up on some posts. Plus I might have some time to get back over to Ned’s! Or check out bitsybeans’ Sherlock blog or the Getting to Know you blog.
Dotty post? Did I hear there is going to be a Dotty post? I LOVE Dotty! She has so many wonderful moments…now I need to change Brackin to Dotty, me thinks…in anticipation of learjet’s posts! I can’t wait!!
Learjet commends you on your improved taste in avatars 🙂
LOL! Thank you. I thought you might approve 🙂
I much prefer Dotty too!! and she’s looking so pretty in that picture!! 🙂 good one BJo!
Thanks! Yes, Dotty does look very good in this picture – that’s why I picked it 🙂 It’s not my favorite Dotty scene at all (nor even a much liked episode), I much prefer her when she’s being funny. But it is a very unique look for her in the series and so after mulling over which of her scenes is my favorite, I decided to go for unique instead! I’m really looking forward to learjet’s posts and discussing all things D-O-T-T-Y, not i-e…and a BIIIG Texas howdy!
LOL, iwsod…great post! I am one of those who tends to not like to get into episode order discussions, mostly because there is “no right answer”. We will never know, so part of me thinks, what’s the point? But that’s just a weird little quirk of mine, and I do enjoy reading the discussion, tossing around ideas in my head, etc. I like being able to watch them in any order, Morley’s, Iwsod’s, my own, or anyone else’s! I think everyone has made valid points that work for them and so therefore, everyone is right in my book! 🙂
Oh, let me clarify….I do NOT have my own order before anyone asks! I was just throwing that out there as an example!
Thanks BJo I know it’s not everyone’s cup of tea! 😉
The look in Wizard – remind me.. what does that look mean? (to you?) because what it means to me doesn’t preclude wizard being before OTL.I think the look can be interpreted to mean lots of things depending on how you see their story unfolding.
Here’s a question for everyone who sees OTL as before Wizard. Why does Lee suddenly decide to change his long held habit of dating superficially – what’s the catalyst for this?? Why now at this point?
For me, Wizard explains this behaviour perfectly.. I won’t explain unless you want me to though! Don’t want to be a bore!
First off, I’d love to hear how Wizard explains Lee’s dating behavior to you. I would not find that boring at all!
1. It’s about Lee.
2. It’s about him growing and maturing so that he can be ready to enter into a relationship with Amanda.
3. It’s about Lee.
4. It’s about him realizing the error of his ways and working to correct them.
5. It’s about Lee.
Second, here are my answers to, or thoughts on, your two questions.
The look I’m talking about is actually the ‘looks’ Lee and Amanda give each other during that 4 black books exchange at the food cart in Francine’s presence. I won’t recap it because your post does it wonderfully. I think the look Lee gives Amanda after he tells them he has 4, count ‘em 4, black books shows regret. I think it is regret because he really cares what Amanda thinks of him and he is afraid that now that she knows the extent of his past, she may never want to be more than his friend. I don’t see this interpretation of Lee’s look possible until after they’ve started investing in their personal relationship outside of work and he realizes Leslie is not what he really wants. I’ve been trying to recall a time when Lee has ever acted like this about his love-life with Amanda before, but I can’t remember any. Does anyone else? Yeah, Lee knows Amanda disapproves of his womanizing, but I don’t recall him ever showing that he cared that she cared – not like this anyway. To me that shows there has been some personal connection established outside work, another level on top of their solid professional connection. The first thing I literally see in the series to show me this has happened is the scene in the OTL tag. And I know you know I like things I can sense – literally. 🙂
For Amanda’s look, I think she is conveying full realization the extent of his past and brief disappointment. I think she has known about his past, has never approved of it, but has never been affected by it or reacted to it in this way until this scene. I think for my interpretation to work, Amanda has to have some realization that Lee may possibly be a genuine future boyfriend for her; that she may actually be considering acting on that long-held, Tupperware-tucked-away desire of hers. I just don’t see that happening before her jealous blow-up in OTL when she is confronted with real proof that Lee may actually be changing his womanizing ways.
Lastly, Francine is there. Right there. Maybe she missed their exchange of looks, maybe she didn’t. It’s irrelevant though. What matters is that they didn’t try to hide their looks from her. To me that means that they are both so concerned about what the other thinks that they forget Francine is there and might observe their connection; Francine ceases to be important at that moment. I don’t think the depth of their connection is something either of them would want her to be aware of for fear of her gossiping ways, for one. So this is another small piece of evidence that tells me this could only happen after they’ve developed their personal, outside-of-work relationship.
On to your second question:
I guess I don’t see Lee’s dating Leslie as sudden. I think from SOS on, Lee’s heart has been very gradually undergoing a change. In the SOS tag, I think he starts to fully realize and truly accept that Amanda is wonderful and very brave. She isn’t just a housewife anymore, but has true professional potential. He may just have to make good on that “partner” handshake in Brunettes. After SOS, Amanda’s professional growth and her personal commitment to Lee over the next few episodes continues to impact him and keep the changes to Lee coming. In the tag of OOADP, I think Lee has come to a full, or almost full realization that the Randi’s of the world are no longer enough. I think he realizes the value of really knowing someone and having a deep connection with someone. In Amanda’s case it helped him to save her life – something that would have completely devastated him had he picked Amanda’s evil twin to save while the real Amanda fell to her death. I don’t think at that point he’s looking to have a romantic connection with Amanda, but rather he wants to find someone else who he can have a romantic and deep connection with. Amanda’s “death” in YODT (remember the trip to the morgue and him almost dropping his teeth?) and her commitment to him in BO also further reinforced this new desire to know and be known in Lee. In BO, I think Lee gets to benefit the flipside of really knowing someone and benefitting from it. Even though he says those awful things and slaps her to get her away from a dangerous case, he is known so well by her that she figures out he’s undercover and can forgive him because she knows it was part of the job (among other things) and that the Lee she knows would never do treat her that way.
Sooo, to get back to my initial statement, I don’t see Lee’s dating Leslie as sudden. It was a gradual change that started in SOS and was helped along significantly by OOADP and BO. I think he was ready by the end of S2 to admit to himself that he wanted something different than what he’d had before in a relationship. Or that he at least wanted to see what it would be like.
One other minor point that I remember, and I think it was Morley who noticed this, but the lack of touching between them in Brand suggested that maybe Lee had started to date Leslie by then? If it wasn’t Morley, I apologize to whoever it was that said that. I think that makes a lot of sense because usually these two are in each other’s space and always touching.
So there you have it. My interpretation of that “look” scene in Wizard and how I see Lee’s dating habits changing.
Love all of this Bjo! I like how you lay everything out. I, too, see the changes in Lee’s dating behavior as gradual and that the changes started somewhere in the second season. Lee had to face a lot of situations near the end of the season of a possibility without Amanda around or in his life. I think it made him see Amanda a bit more clearly and also made him look at his own life a bit more. In ALSALS Lee made that comment about Rita not being a lady and at the time he was seeing Randi. He had to be doing some comparing then as well.
When he brings in the tape of Retzig in DOA Francine makes a snarky comment about who and what’s on the tape. Lee indicates that he’s not in the mood and I think it shows he has been going through some changes in his thought processes. At some point it must have gone through his mind that Karen in OOADP and a few others have assumed that Lee had something going on with Amanda. While I don’t think he pondered it for very long I do think it was somewhere in the back of his mind and in some way he has been responding to these things on a subconscious level.
Well thank you, Valerie! And good point about Lee comparing between Rita and Randi…the “R” women. It is weird how Francine brings Randi up in DOA when ALSALS happened three eps prior. I guess Francine is out of the gossip loop. That or Lee is inputting less to it. I like the latter explanation better. I wonder if Lee ever gave any thought to Credle or Treloggin and how they were killed – meaning they must have fallen for Amanda or been willing to meet her in a hotel room. I wonder if Lee wondered what they were thinking about Amanda in that time. We saw Treloggin’s surprise that there really wasn’t anything between Amanda and Lee. I wonder if Credle had the same questions for her – proably!
Oh la laa.. this is one of those comments where I wish I could copy and paste and then reply next to the text man!
lol thanks for the encouragement BJo.. anything about Lee is a good thing huh!
Oh I see! I actually agree with you about the meaning of the look (or looks) – I guess I disagree about the wider implications. What has to have come before it.. what that means and the assumptions that are drawn about this – my assumptions are different 😉 after all if it’s not on screen it’s assumptions and I’m sure I’m making a ton. SMK has left a lot off screen and left us to surmise for ourselves what’s going on I think.. especially in terms of how much Lee was dating leading up to Wizard.
Yes I remember a few people sharing they felt Lee had pretty much stopped dating after Randi – however I think this is not confirmed by the show and may or may not be what the character did. It could be argued Lee’s dinner with Pamela at the start of Wizard was a date – it is not said what it is. So we can see that little dinner as a date or not as a date, depending on what we think Lee is up to at that point. I personally have no idea if it was a date or wasn’t.
I’d like to go back to ALSALS and read from there – If I get to it I’ll let you know. but I’m just going by memory here so forgive me if I get it wrong.
I felt Lee had a glimmer of awkwardness with Amanda and his dating life mixing in ALSALS. I am thinking after Ship of spies Lee started to change – but that doesn’t mean his behaviour had yet changed. Sometimes it takes time for the actions to catch up.. long standing behaviours can be like that..
I remember that Lee was very uncomfortable with Amanda asking about if Lee was serious about this date – and he says something like yeah well maybe.. like – I don’t want to be talking about this with you or have to put it into words.. he doesn’t want to examine his behaviour because he knows it is starting to feel a bit different – though he’s not sure why.
I think Lee from that point on keeps his private life very private – we see this in how he rebuffs Francine’s jibes about his dating.. he’s no longer full of bravado – but does that mean he is no longer dating? I don’t assume so. I have no idea. we aren’t told. But what we do know is that Lee is changing on the inside..
I loved your run down BJo – and I think I’d pretty much agree with everything you say!
Except I don’t think they had to have the official outside of work friendship moment for Lee to have Lee regret his 4 black books. This moment comes after the huge episodes Burn Out and Murder Between Friends – at the start of season 3 (in my opinion) Lee and Amanda were already very close friends – but the explicit labelling of it as such had not happened. It was under the guise of being for work.. but it wasn’t.
Lee was still in Amanda’s life after she quit in Murder Between Friends – and in that episode they share another look infront of Francine which would have been very telling – Lee is utterly devastated to hear Amanda is resigning. And Amanda mumbles to Lee in front of the others something about how she had to. Plus! In Vigilante Mothers we have that awful ‘we could just do dinner’ moment – At the start of season 3 they are already well on their way to being close friends- but Lee resists in labelling it. Does that make sense?
Oh dear this has gone on a long time.. I might try and come back later BJo and respond to your ideas more fully – especially about Lee’s change in behaviour.
But heck.. I know these are fictional characters.. and if it isn’t on screen and comfirmed.. (or disproven by later episodes I guess!) then I think we can flippin think what we like!
We all love these characters and more or less see the journey in a similar way..
Okay I best be off I really need to get started writing Sour Grapes! Haven’t watched it.. haven’t started it.. oh dear!!! byeeeeee
Yup. Anything about Lee is a good thing. LEE is a good thing. Am I clear? 😉
And you are right about making assumptions. We are left to assume a lot which means it is wide open to interpretation. I tend to stick with what we are given in an episode – what we can see and hear – and try to assume as little as possible unless it seems more like a logical extension of what we see and hear in an episode. Then again, my logic is based on my experiences and viewpoint, so even there it will not necessarily lead two people to “logically” conclude the same thing!
Lee’s dinner with Pamela could be construed as a date, but if you assume she lives in London – she does have a British accent, I think – then I don’t really see it as a date date, but more of a one-night stand which is different in my mind. I have never put Pamela in the same category as the Randi’s. Plus, her name doesn’t end in i! tee hee. But really, there is no proof we can see or hear in the episode, we have to make an assumption.
Iwsod, you said,
If they are just friends at work, but not outside of work yet, why would Lee have regret about this? Perhaps I am projecting too much of myself on this analysis, but for me there needs to be some sort of personal, non-work invested connection between these two for him to have regret. I think the whole idea of “no shop talk” in the OTL tag allows them to freely explore topics that they have not discussed in any depth before. Actually, I think it gives Lee permission to explore the suburban/mother/normal side of Amanda without having to make excuses and it gives Amanda permission to explore Lee’s past as long as it doesn’t get into anything classified.
I agree there is that moment in MBF where Lee and Amanda exchange looks, but I would expect that even Francine would expect some sort of reaction from Lee to that surprise announcement. I actually think Lee, Francine, and Billy were all a bit stunned in their own rights and probably were busy processing that little bomb of Amanda’s rather than look at Lee to see his reaction. And that awful VM moment in Billy’s office…well, I’ll admit that I put my fingers in my ears and sing the Smurf song when that happens. What were TPTB thinking!!! I don’t know what to do with that one, except to let Francine chalk it up to it being ding-dong Amanda and totally missing it because she is not a trained agent and obviously a trained agent would know that Lee was talking business in Billy’s office.
Overall I think you are right – these are fictional characters and we can think what we like!!! In fact, I reserve the right to change my opinion in the future, if for no other reason than to appreciate Lee and Amanda’s relationship from a different point of view! After all, that is the best way to get a new appreciation for it, right? It is what it is, so unless we can see it from a different angle it will always look the same!
Hope the Sour Grapes writing is coming along well!! Are you enjoying a glass of wine while you’re blogging? Oh wait, it is the a.m. there…a mimosa perhaps? Just to be in the “spirit” of things!
I’ll come back and reply properly I promise.. but just quickly wanted to address:
I do think they are friends outside of work too BJO- great friends.. it’s just that Lee is yet to acknowledge it in Wizard
(he doesn’t do that until he invites Amanda out to dinner with no shop talk..and a potato on the side 😉 )
I hope that makes sense..
I’ll be back! I am determined to get post 1 sour grapes done!!! gah!!
Okay I’m back.. first post written.. phew!
will publish it tonight.
Sooo looks like I didn’t catch you before you signed off with my mini comment there – never mind! 🙂
Like I said, I saw them as good friends already, but it had not yet been acknowledged by Lee – that was a big step. But would they have discussed private stuff before that acknowledgement? Hmm.. maybe not.. though they were very comfortable in vigilante Mothers..
I guess I was seeing that look of regret over the 4 books as a significant moment because it was a first for Lee – he has always known Amanda doesn’t agree with his rampant love life- and that’s not how she chooses to live – I felt it was significant that in that reaction – Lee cares what Amanda thinks.. and he pleads for her- Maybe I see the lines of when their friendship grows closer as being more blurry – I can see Lee being that close a friend with Amanda before Lee chooses to acknowledge their close friendship at the end of OTL. but I do think Amanda would not have explicitly chosen to explore Lee’s private life – like you say – until after the OTL tag- but what happens in Wizard is that Lee’s private life is blasted out into the open for all the world to see – he didn’t choose it, Amanda didn’t ask- but they need to deal with it – it’s all very confronting and they grow from it even closer 🙂
I think through the end of season 2 they get closer and closer – as you said BJo, and that it takes time for Lee to catch up with that and acknowledge it. The OTL tag was a long time coming 😉
whoo hooo Lee could be sleeping with Pamela but it’s not a date? Lol I’d call that a date! I think smk skims over the dirty details when it comes to Lee’s love life – and lets us blissfully kid ourselves about Lee and his sleeping around.. I tend to think he was of Bond proportions- but always with women who were just as fast (had on their little tennis shoes) – and he didn’t intentionally mistreat them.. but then.. I figured that was partly what wizard was about – people get hurt when you play the field so much.. including Lee – he was missing out on a true relationship.. but well I won’t get into that now..rah rah.. I’ll get back to your other comment too now BJo!
I missed you!!!
lol.. yeah I hear ya on that VM moment.. cringeworthy! I think that reaction infront of Francine could mean something but maybe not. it could go either way if we want it to. Like most things – but for me.. not the rose – that was way too significant.
Wine while I blog? lol I don’t drink and blog 😉 that would be a very scary proposition!!
Boundaries. That was the word that kept running through my head as I was reading your comment, iwsod. Boundaries for the topics or context of their conversation. I understand what it is you’re saying and can see how that interpretation works great with Wizard coming before OTL. But the idea of boundaries may be where our paths diverge on the episode order working for us even though we agree on what their looks mean. I hope I can explain this well enough to understand what I mean! Does it make any sense now??
I agree with you that Lee and Amanda are very close and are great friends. The end of S2 shows us that in many ways. However, I think the context has always been a work context. I don’t see them connecting in any context other than a co-worker context until after the OTL tag. When Amanda shows up at Lee’s place in ALSALS he wants to know ‘what she’s doing there’. They are much closer than in TACMKid, but it’s the same line – I think it is a little uncomfortable that Amanda is infringing upon Lee’s private life uninvited, and not just because Randi is coming. But the more important part is the boundary on the conversation topics. Prior to the OTL tag, I don’t see Lee ever asking Amanda questions about anything in her life that isn’t related to work. I don’t see him asking about her father, her past, her mother’s life, if her kids like school, etc. Whatever he knows, he knows because Amanda has volunteered it to him in a ramble or in conversation (He knows about Dotty’s card club. I think it’s because Amanda has mentioned it and he’s remembered rather than ever having asked about Dotty and what she likes to do). Scarecrow the superspy, playboy extraordinaire, and protector of Amanda should not be interested in the everyday minutiae of the life of an average suburban housewife. Stuff like that does not belong in his world. But the longer they work together, the more he realizes just how un-average Amanda is and that maybe, just maybe, he is interested in what every day real life is like with kids, a mother, and a mortgage. So in the tag of OTL, I think he is finally giving himself permission to ask about these things and discuss them with Amanda without feeling like he is losing his core ‘superspyness’, if you will. His deep work-friend connection with Amanda is now taken to a new level of friendship. He wants to know who Amanda is outside of work – not just the stereotype. I think to cross that line with a co-worker is a very big and scary step. When I worked, I had some great work friends, but my work world and my personal world were kept apart. Seeing those work friends outside of work in completely social situations just didn’t happen, except for once, and I married that “once”. 🙂 I’m pretty sure I said in one of the OTL posts that Lee didn’t want his two worlds to collide – his work world and his personal world. That comment had all to do with boundaries.
So if I’m reading you right, you see Wizard as a means to an end and I see Wizard as the end. It is as if that part of his life is over – it is the final chapter for Scarecrow as he used to be, and the exposure of his former life and murder of these women due to their connection with him is the exclamation point on the end of the sentence. But he now needs to latch on to Amanda to help him find his way in this new world of his, so he grabs on and doesn’t ever let go!
Yeah, guess I’m thinking a one-night stand isn’t’ necessarily a date, but I would consider Lee’s dinner with Pamela a date. Just a one-time date and not a date with the hope of several more to come. And I’m with you, I tend to think of Lee as having quite a past with the ladies.
Wow.. lol.. I thought you were feeling saturated by Wizard/OTL discussion! Or is this your way that you dea with it? 😉
I could happily say I agree with a lot of what you say BJo – it works in either order.
For me, Lee crossed the line big time (boundary!) when he confided in Amanda about Dorothy – that was a huge turning point in their friendship – and Lee’s relief and comment at how good it was to talk with Amanda about it to me was a first and very significant. The tag of OTL is Lee acknowledging how close they are now and that they are now not just work oriented.
Wizard is not a means to an end, it is in itself full of significance for the characters. and for Lee’s development. by the end of the episode Lee has healed a number of issues and grown in many ways – over the limit is the result of this growth – Leslie IMHO is an attempt to get the normal relationship with out risking his friendship with Amanda.. but by the end of OTL Lee knows it just won’t do.. and he has acknowledged how much he values Amanda – and that Leslie just wouldn’t do.. but romance was still up in the air a little and that aspect didn’t enter into things until the bedroom scene in ALLA. At least that’s how I see it!
I think Lee first started to let go of the ‘superspyness’ when he confided in Amanda at the café – he was a little uncomfortable with it at first, but in the end he did well and was very glad he did let go of his superspyness and seek Amanda’s help and support! 🙂
yes in OTL tag- he is relaxed and not the super scarecrow – he’s just Lee – and he’s comfortable with it by then! which is why he takes the step of asking Amanda to a dinner with no shop talk 🙂
Also Lee giving Amanda the roses at the end of Wizard to say thanks – was thanks for her support – thanks for her friendship I think.. and I like it before OTL when Lee is more overt about it.
I’ve really enjoyed reading your take on things BJo!!! It’s been really helpful to think things through 🙂
but LOL the more I think about it the more I like wizard first 🙂 I’ve tried to be as brief as I can here hope I’ve made sense! byeeee
LOL, iwsod! I meant that I was too saturated in terms of being able to separate and re-order all the various scenes in my head to truly be able to “see” the episode order in a different light. It is one thing to be able to logically comprehend something in your brain, but to really be able to “see” it is another thing. My hope is that in 6 months I’ll be able to do that. I’ve been thinking about these episodes for too long and think I am stuck in a rut with my thinking. Not that I’m looking to change necessarily, but just appreciate it more if that makes any sense.
I LOVED reading this discussion!!! So sorry that I missed it. I was tempted all along the way to make little comments…but I still think I am going to hold off and put my thoughts down, blow by blow, thought by thought, in my stories. Of course that means waiting for months until I start to publish season three, but that may just coincide with the December alarm on your calendar, Iwsod.
I hated that “just do dinner” moment too…rofl at plugging your ears and humming to block it out! In my headcanon, I just like to pretend that Amanda is all savvy and just joking at that point.
getting back to Lee deciding to date Leslie.
I really enjoyed your walk through the development of Lee’s heart there BJo! 🙂
I agree pretty much with everything you’ve said!
I’m not seeing lack of touching in Mr Brand- they’re hardly together.. it’s a very different feel to that episode so nope I don’t see it as significant. sorry!
I do agree that it is a gradual process that has Lee changing his view of relationships, women and himself – and I agree very much with everyone that Lee was changing leading up to OTL.
With Wizard before OTL – it is plain that the traumatic experience of losing Dorothy, and this new trauma of having all these women Lee knew, had worked with or dated was a big turning point for Lee in his life – he was confronted with his behaviour- and when he was forced to confront it I think he saw for the first time that he was not proud of his behaviour any longer.. he realised his heart/beliefs/values were incongruent with his behaviour – which previously had been something he was perfectly happy and comfortable about. Lee had changed inside- and in Wizard he became fully aware of that – all season 2 and Lee’s growth in this area built up to this moment – Lee finally grows up and begins to want a real relationship where he is known. truly known. I think I said some of this already on the Wizard/OTL thread so I might leave it there..
But I see Lee as slowly changing like everyone else – but lee’s dating was a long held habit and it took the shock of Wizard for him to deal with his past, set himself free and look forward to a future where he might share a real relationship with someone. (the realisation that it had to be Amanda at that time was maybe too much for him to deal with 😉 )
So Gradual change – I’m all for!!! but.. the catalyst that shocked Lee out of his old habits and made him confront his behaviour was Wizard (plus Dorothy’s loss seems to have sparked his fear of intimacy – and that got dealt with!)
Enough iwsod.. enough!
Okay! I’m backing away from the computer.. an no one is going to get hurt!!! 🙂
[edited to add- I think when the walk is finished I want to walk through the first five episodes of season 3 in my preferred order! I love the story.. I love the progression and I’d do it now but lol I better now – best to keep going to the end!!]
Hello, me again…yeah, the no touching in Brand is not significant in and of itself; Amanda is with Brand more than with Lee, but as an observation, it can be used as circumstantial evidence to help form assumptions about his relationship with Leslie even though it is not direct proof. So I agree with you and do not think of it as a key argument.
Yes, I agree with what you say about Lee’s changes with Wizard coming before OTL. It makes sense in that order. I can also see how feeling like all those women being murdered because of his relationships with them would jolt him into making a major change in his behavior. A change perhaps that may not have come or happened so thoroughly had he not had such a jolt. I can totally understand that interpretation with Wizard coming first. May I ask if that is based more on your life experiences, on your psychologist’s education, or both? Or something else entirely?
I guess my heart melts a bit more thoroughly or goes pitter-pat just a wee bit faster when I think of the gradual changes in Lee’s behavior as more of a result of his realization of how wonderful Amanda is, how he needs her and wants her in his life, and wants to know someone and be known by someone rather than as a result of a baddie trying to manipulate him to get him to kill the Wizard. That plus I don’t feel the need to use the airing order as input since we’re rearranging the first five eps anyway. I think you mentioned that you like to stick with the original airing order unless there was proof in a subsequent episode that it couldn’t be that way (i.e. the Q bureau). If I shared that principle, then I would probably have to go by the rules and ascribe to the view that Wizard came first and interpret the journey the same way you do.
Love how you take the change in Lee back to the end of season 2, BJo.
You make a lot of convincing points here, BJo. I agree that Lee has been evolving in his mindset around personal relationships through the last part of S2, but I also think he’s very set in his ways and slow to change. It takes a lot of convincing (and usually a sledgehammer to the skull) to make him change his mind about something thoroughly enough to also change his behaviour. For me, the sledgehammer is when Lee has to face up to reality slapping him in the face in the form of the four black books. In that scene, I see Lee being very emotionally involved – his regret and embarrassment is pretty obvious when he looks at Amanda (love your comments about not even caring that Francine’s right there!), but to me, Amanda is in full work mode. She’s certainly very gracious about it, and because of the Tupperware-enclosed feelings she’s been harbouring she’s definitely affected by it, but she doesn’t acknowledge anything personal to Lee – she looks down at the ground for a moment, puts the emotion away, and moves on to practical things again. To me, this follows on very well from Brand and Weasel, where it’s primarily Amanda’s professional abilities and reputation that are being developed. Lee is starting to be more open emotionally, but Amanda is working very hard to establish herself as an agent, even if it’s not official yet.
“I think he realizes the value of really knowing someone and having a deep connection with someone. […] I don’t think at that point he’s looking to have a romantic connection with Amanda, but rather he wants to find someone else who he can have a romantic and deep connection with.”
This is exactly how I see Lee evolving! IMHO, it isn’t until after the disastrous dinner with Leslie that he realizes what he’s really looking for might be something he already has.
I also have a tendency to read into symbolism (sometimes too much!), so I really think the rose in OTL is a quick nod to the experience they shared in Wizard, with Amanda acknowledging how far Lee has come – and possibly just a hint of possessiveness after all the implications of the ‘new girlfriend.’ So for me, I like OTL after Wizard – the order I came up with ended up being the same as iwsod’s order in the original post.
I want so badly to respond to this, but only have seconds. And yet, I know if I don’t write something it will distract me all night.
I think you helped me figure out why I want OTL so soon and like Wizard where I put it in my order, Danni.
Something that you wrote about Lee being set in his ways and slow to change helped me to pinpoint what to me is the difference.
I may be wrong about how it affects the view of those who like another order but for me it comes down to why Lee has formed the dating habits he has. I think he did it because of fear. I think he is scared to allow someone close because of fear of loss, but I do think he longs for it. I guess I don’t see him as the consummate bachelor who likes his varied dating life. The fact that he was willing to think about marrying evil Eva is one of the things that makes me think this.
I guess I don’t think he would change his habits so quickly, even with the 2×4 of Amanda. And I don’t think he is so dull as to go for Leslie first, unless he was trying to deal with some strong emotion that was scaring the heck out of him.
I see Lee as falling in love with Amanda from SOS on and working overtime to not admit it. Leslie is his last ditch effort. I kind of think that by Wizard he is ready for someone or something to rip open that Tupperware closet and let it all come out. Just not sure if he could open it himself at the point that we are at (SG not included, because… well, I can’t say yet 😉 )
Ok, I guess I got that out of my head. It isn’t fully formed, but it will be in my stories… 😀
Thanks for writing such a great comment Danni, and giving me an excuse to spend some time in my crazy day to visit my favorite Rabbit Hole!!!
🙂 love your comments, Morley! And now I’m waiting with bated breath for whatever it is you’re going to say about SG!
I agree with you about Lee’s glacially slow evolution. He’s probably spent his whole life convincing himself he’s better off alone, between his parents and his uncle and moving from base to base, not to mention Dorothy and Eva. I think he’s been falling for Amanda for a long time, but doesn’t recognize it for what it is until somewhere in S3.
I’m so enjoying reading everyone’s opinions on here, and it’s been such a welcoming atmosphere from everyone – so thank you!!
Never one to shirk my duty, I dispensed with the fun parts of Saturday (grocery shopping, washing and hanging up the clothes) before bravely taking up the challenge of watching the five episodes as per Iwsod’s preferred order.
First up: two things link Welcome to America Mr Brand (aka Mr Brand) to two later episodes
– Amanda’s shorter hair in Mr Brand and OTL (it’s consistently longer in the other 3)
– wearing the same blouse and jeans ensemble (yes it’s an ensemble not a nonsemble in the tag of ALLA and the pre-tag scenes of Mr Brand). I think Iwsod mentioned a link with one of Lee’s outfits btwn these episodes
I think thought that these issues relate to shooting schedules and don’t help with episode order at all.
My thoughts about the story as per Iwsod’s order:
1) Mr Brand:
– Lee’s attitude is very much business with some friendliness to Amanda, no hint of anything more
– Amanda has some silly season 1 and 2 style moments, which don’t occur in any of the other 4 episodes
– interesting re professional development. Billy is rather patronising toward her about her work; this attitude has changed significantly by ALLA
– I think this is def before both Wizard and ALLA because of the Q bureau
– there is however an slightly inconsistent element of closeness between Lee and Amanda: he verbally compliments her on her work (which he doesn’t do again in these episodes, and she brings this up in the ALLA tag), and Amanda sits on his desk in the Q-bureau
– she is surprised that Lee has said something to Harry about her looks. Therefore this must be pre-OTL where he says she looks beautiful in the dress
– Amanda is learning Russian phrase, implying she is moving ahead professionally beyond the Mr Brand stage
– the feel between them is more intimate (other than inconsistencies above) esp the look that Lee gives Amanda about the 4 black books, “It’s important to me that you care” in the cafe [swoon!!]
– Amanda is having shooting practice, pointing to this episode being after Mr Brand and Weasel
– the ‘disconnectedness’ between Lee and Amanda I think is the result of crankiness from lack of sleep on Lee’s part – not necessarily pointing to OTL being before Wizard
– I wonder if Amanda’s jealously re Leslie is fuelled by the increased intimacy between them in Wizard, maybe her thoughts of things changing between them, only to be dashed with the advent of Leslie
– the rose given to Lee doesn’t distress him, pointing to this being post-Wizard
– is Amanda’s interest in Alan fuelled by Leslie being around in OTL, so she is looking elsewhere (will in Wizard she may have thought that something might happen with Lee)?
– Lee is hinting at a (less platonic) interest in her – the “dull as a stick” conversation about Alan
– the nightgown scene – could not have happened before the other 4 episodes. It def marks a (permanent) shift in their relationship
In conclusions, I’m with Team Iwsod on episode order. I realise that this is a complete about-turn on my previous opinions but watching all 5 episodes on the same day changed my mind (and the rose issue). This order just worked for me
You make some really great points, learjet! I’ll have to go back and watch the five episodes in the two proposed orders. I watched OTL/Wizard and Wizard/OTL when we were walking through the eps, but not within the context of all 5. Based on just the two episodes, I think I could make a case for either, and am not sure that it would really matter to me. The rose scene in OTL is a sticking point, but so is the “look” in Wizard about the black books. After a while, I think I might feel a bit like a dog chasing it’s tail…. 🙂
whoo hoo!! while I had accepted I was the only person here who thought wizard should stay before OTL and doesn’t need to move – I’m thrilled to hear you have agreed with me 🙂 lol team iwsod is it?!
Hey we can all change our minds- I think that’s great.. it shows you hear other’s ideas and considers them – rather than simply thinking No not what I think! [not that this is what people who disagree with me about the order are doing!]
How cool that would went through and watched them all! good for you learjet! that’s a great idea!
Very groovy to see your thoughts summarised bringing them all together 🙂
I agree with you that Amanda’s reaction in OTL at meeting Leslie makes more sense coming after Wizard and the bond they shared.. With that sweet tag, the idea that maybe Lee was changing and wanting a real relationship may have started to creep in – the question at least.. rather than the expectation – but in OTL- Amanda gets her answer and it’s not one she likes at all!!! [lol none of us like it! 😉 well except Leslie]
I was thinking Lee pushing Amanda away professionally in OTL was not about their professional progression – I was thinking it was a result of all the other things that were going on for Lee.. I think was wanting Amanda and all those messy emotions out of his perfect hair here.. Plus if you look at what Amanda does with Lee in WTAMB, TOTDW and Wizard – Amanda’s work in those three eps was not dealing with bad guys under Lee’s orders – seeing O’Keefe re the blackmail payment was possibly dangerous and so I don’t see it as unusual that Lee didn’t include Amanda in the plans – what’s unusual is Amanda’s reaction to not being included – she’s over the limit!!! 🙂
In WTAMB Amanda was babysitting James
In TOTDW Amanda was working for Harry – not Lee’s chosing! 🙂
In Wizard Amanda works to contact the women in Lee’s blackbook.. and when she gets close to danger – Lee sends her home.
In OTL, Amanda is giving the task by Lee to find out the owner of the car with the licence plate.. but that goes wrong, she has to go in to meet O’keefe and Lee saves the day – but she was really out of her depth and while they worked great together with what ended up happening, it was not Lee’s plan to allow Amanda to walk into danger at all – this big moment doesn’t come until ALLA!!! so I think this all fits together very well with how Lee lets Amanda go a little bit in ALLA 🙂
Oops also. Is there an upcoming episode you still need a transcript for? Id need a week or two to get it done.
I have just finished transcribing One Bear Dances and have sent it to Petra. Do you want me to send it to you as well?? Karyn
Hi Karyn- A huge thank you!!!!! Thanks for emailing me the transcript!!
We salute you!!!
[I’ve emailed you back 🙂 ]
I feel like ALLA has to be after OTL because it would make no sense of him making a big deal asking Amanda out to dinner if they are already doing things like going to the opera. But my feeling is the order got.changed in airing becauseaybe they felt like the audience would be upset that Amanda kissed someone else and was worrying about finding a guy with his own hair after Lee and Amanda started “dating.” Just a guess. I also like Wizard after OTL because I feel like that little moment when Lee is talking about his black books and looks at Amanda is him saying “Sorry my past sucks and what we have is different” and her being like “oh I know but that’s sweet.” Lol
Yes, agree about Wizard after OTL, especially around that moment re the black books and the more natural flow of the relationship in that order.
I tend to think the rose moment on the fade out of the scene in OTL was probably just a spontaneous ad-lib by KJ.
I agree with you guys. I can see the logic of putting Over the Limit after Wizard because of how Lee feels about roses, but the absence of the Q Bureau in that episode seems a little funny. I suppose that they might not have had a reason to show it in Over the Limit, but both Wizard and ALLA have it or at least refer to it. It just makes it seem more likely to me that Over the Limit might take place before Weasel, so they didn’t have the Q Bureau yet.
Also, it strikes me that in Weasel, Wizard, and ALLA, Lee treats Amanda more as an equal partner than in Over the Limit, so I like the grouping of the three of them together.
I agree about wizard after OTL my main reason is I can’t see after Wizard and what was happening to Lee’s women the very next episode OTL opening with a joke about Lee the midnight rambler.
I actually think that Lee treats Amanda more like an equal partner in Weasel and Wizard, and less like one in both OTL and ALLA. I’m thinking of trying to take her off the case in the nightgown scene when he discovers Alan’s apparent association with Gelati in ALLA