7/16 Season Three, Episode 9: J.Edgar’s Ghost-Scarecrow and Mrs King

42 thoughts on “7/16 Season Three, Episode 9: J.Edgar’s Ghost-Scarecrow and Mrs King”

1. Morley, I always love hearing your comments on Lee & Amanda – you articulate them so well!

   On a very light note, am I the only stress eater in the room who sees Agnes’s apple pie as stress eating over heartbreak and not a stereotype?? 😂 Though my stress eating would have involved a lot of chocolate. But apple pie would work, too….(leaves to go find some food….)

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2. Pingback: 16/20 Season Three, Episode 22: All the World’s a Stage–Scarecrow and Mrs King | "Just walk with me.."

3. I don’t think that when amanda said that to Lee, she meant to convey anything about their relationship, I think their relationship is where Lee’s mind went immediately upon hearing it, and the little smile she gives is because she knows that is what he is thinking …

   still very sweet! ❤

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   1. I agree!

      And Lee’s hair is fantastic and short here. not sure if it’s that short anywhere else. a bit weird but hey, I won’t look a gift horse in the mouth 🙂

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5. Okay, I had to go back and watch this section of JEG again to get my impressions. I get the impression that Lee is more worried about Amanda getting “emotionally involved” in this case because of its similarity to her own experience. He knows how she is and he also knows they need to get to the bottom of this quickly. He feels she will slow him down, and she does a bit with her “have to be patient” speech. However, she’s also being professional in how she works with Agnes gently to get the information they need. She’s a sympathetic ear to listen at such a difficult time.

   I do agree with Kiwismh that Amanda spoke quickly with the “have to be patient” line and didn’t realize the implication of that to her and Lee until after it was said. Lee responds by tucking it away quickly – business first. He’s still exploring this relationship and doesn’t want to jump too fast into the “love” phase. Amanda ponders it a bit longer because she’s been very patient herself in a sense, and it takes her a bit longer to get distance.

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6. Agree on the Lee/Amanda hair comments. And I agree about Amanda’s line being dumb about the kind of man Agnes would date. I think he looks exactly the type. He’s not too good-looking, average size, nothing special. Just what the heck does she think Agnes’ type would look like?

   I think the Lonely Hearts Patrol is men on the lookout for an easy backgammon partner….

   I guess Amanda must have had other interactions with Agnes that we never got to see. I agree, Amanda is not coming across as caring so much as she doesn’t think much of Agnes.

   I don’t get that line of Lee’s either. Why is he objecting to Amanda going? To me this is inconsistent with his behavior with Amanda so far. Is he worried the job is going to get too “mushy”? Does he not want to deal with two women and potential tears? I get the feeling that Lee does not want Amanda along for this one. I think he thinks she’ll complicate things. Lee has not gotten over his stereotypes after all!

   Gosh, Agnes is so much prettier without those bug-eye glasses!

   And yes, Lee is looking very good in that screen cap – he does serious stare veeery well.

   This whole talking about love scene is the best in this episode, but I’ve never been able to figure it out! So I’m ending my comment here and looking forward to reading what everyone else has to say!

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   1. Soooo great to hear from you BJo!!!! Welcome back!!!

      I thought I was going to have more time for smk over the next week or two.. boooo so far that’s not happening.. but.. I’ll keep trying! and I’ll get back here when I can.. and I’ll publish the next post as soon as I can – just wanted to say hiya, and that I am enjoying all your comments BJo and everyone! byeeee!

      happy 2015 everyone!!!

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7. Like how Amanda is so much more professional in her approach now. Perhaps Agnes also serves as a reminder of how far Amanda has progressed as a confident, professional woman. She always had ability and a degree of confidence in herself, her but I think the events of her life, particularly the dysfunctional marriage and inevitable divorce dealt to a blow to her confidence and trust in her own abilities.
   In the script Francine is in on the meeting in Billy’s office. The original dialogue around who should interview Agnes is interesting. After Billy says, “I was just thinking the same thing, Amanda.”
   LEE : Billy, I’ve conducted a few interviews.
   AMANDA : This is different, Agnes is a lady.
   LEE : What’s that supposed to mean. I’m not exactly Jack the Ripper…
   FRANCINE : Nice, Amanda. Open foot. Insert mouth.”
   I’m glad they changed it – this exchange between L&A seems a bit jarring at this point in their relationship.
   During the exchange between Amanda and Lee re love and patience, there is no hint of how the actors should play the scene – just the dialogue. I like to think that BB and KJ added the tension (good tension, of course 😉 ) to this scene.

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8. So how to Nick get the bug/tracking device into the handbag without damaging it? Maybe he gave Agnes the bag as a gift? No, that’s weird – a handbag is a really personal preference thing that a woman buys for herself. Not a gift a guy would get for her. Okay, so Nick’s an expert seamstress (seamsman? seamster?) and sewed up the damaged bag so well Agnes didn’t notice. I really shouldn’t think about these minor details but sometimes my brain just gets stuck on a detail.

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   1. Oh, and the script is oddly specific about the tracking device – *Lee cuts into the lining of the purse. The removes a Jacobs & Thompson 78B-3, double-headed electronic surveillance device.”
      Really?

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      1. LOL!

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   2. Funny the script was so specific! As far as how the bug got intp the lining, I’d guess that Nick cut a very small opening somewhere and dropped it in. Lee was not inclined to spend time looking for that opening when he found the bug inside. Maybe the very specific “bug” reference was done to highlight its small size? Still odd — who would really know or care that it was specifically that kind of device!

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9. Yes, I agree with Kiwismh too-(hey I just said your name out loud while I was typing it for the first time! Hullo Cuz!)

   Amanda said it for the right reason but then KNEW what it really meant imo.

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   1. Kia ora! Nice to have another kiwi cuzzie here at JWWM. 😀 KC is our other kiwi cuz but not resident in NZ at the moment.

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10. It’s at least ironic to see Amanda putting Agnes in a neat little box when she so objected to the same kind of labeling in Filming Raul. However, her characterization of Agnes seems plausible based on what we have seen so far, and it was really not an insensitive characterization. Or at least not to me. But then again I am not known for my sensitivity!

    LOL, my spices are alphabetized. Now my daughter actually did it, but I liked the idea so am trying to keep them in order. So nice not to have to hunt for the nutmeg 🙂

    I agree that Lee looks a little bit over-styled early on but he sure makes up for it in a big way in those scenes in Agnes’s apartment. Lovely screencaps! And, true confession, I know my 80’s roots are showing here because I’m loving all the contrast of color and the crazy lines in the outfit Lee is wearing in Billy’s office. Funny that the knee-jerk reaction to this style was the mono-chromatic look later in the decade!

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    1. Our posts crossed over Raffie LOL. I’ll admit that my spices and herbs are also alphabeticised (separately!) but my daughter did it for me (without my asking). So are my books…

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       1. Wow, it’s like our families are channeling each other, learjet!

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    2. Agree Raffie – I wasn’t really bothered by Agnes’ characterisation. She’s clearly an intelligent, able woman but also somewhat reserved and timid by nature, so it makes sense to me that she would choose a career like librarian or researcher where she can be left to her own devices/work in solitude most of the time. When she does seek company she is probably not as relationship savvy as most women her age, making her an easy target for someone like NIck to cosy up to without her getting suspicious. Once hooked by NIck the rose-coloured glasses of “love” make it hard for her to recognise the little clues of his real nature, and we see that she is even resistant to the suggestion that he may not be her knight in shining armour even when the evidence against him starts to become apparent.

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    3. I’ve already mentioned that I’m an accountant, and on top of that I worked in a library for four years during college, so I’ll wade into the debate about SMK stereotyping, particularly James in WTAMB and Agnes in JEG. I personally don’t mind these two SMK stereotypes because I don’t see that SMK treats them in an offensive or demeaning way. I see the stereotypes of James and Agnes as being the writers’ shorthand to convey a lot of information about these two characters to the audience without spending time on a lot of exposition. Perhaps it’s not the most creative way of handling the situation, but nonetheless it’s effective. And truth be told, I have no room to complain in regards to James’s mismatched socks, because I have more than once looked down at my own ankles at some point during a work day to find I’m wearing two similar yet different socks! I do, however, draw the line at the wardrobe choices for Agnes and would personally like to penguin-slap the costumer.

       But when you think about it, the basic premise of SMK is built on stereotypes: the super-smooth, super-sexy, super spy Scarecrow and the somewhat scattered suburban mom-with-a-mortgage Mrs. King. And week by week we’ve watched SMK lovingly and patiently dismantle these two stereotypical characters and gradually show us the “real” Lee and Amanda. Ultimately I think Agnes and especially James prove to be a bit more than their stereotypes, too.

       And now I think I’ll go put on my flannel nightgown, pour myself a glass of warm milk and curl up with a good book on pension accounting. 😉

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       1. Great points about stereotypes in this post, 2Goldens! And rest assured, these days mismatched socks are a fashion statement!

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          1. Aww, thanks Raffie! 🙂

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       2. Hey 2 Goldens.. this comment is fantastic! I’d say that I agree with all of it- stereotyping is a storytelling tool – and I am not against it.

          What I don’t like is when the stereotyping is over the top – and I found Agnes to be waaaaay over the top – to the point of caricature. I like her character, I think what happens to her is traumatic enough, without having to also be burdened by all the clichés!

          I think James and Agnes are indeed more than their stereotypes – which makes the over the top touches bug me even more!

          It’s all about balance – the stereotypes are fine – but too much of it detracts from their story – it leads me to think smk thought the audience were stupid – and wouldn’t connect Agnes with being a quiet person who needs company and finds it with Nick – we got it already, we don’t need the glasses (with chains no less), the frumpy wardrobe, the baking an apple pie nor the alphabetised spices (emphasised by Amanda) all combined to tell us what kind of person she is – OTT! one or two of these would have been enough. Combined? for me – I think they see the audience as stupid. you might have noticed – I don’ t like that! Man, am I in a mood about OTT stereotyping!

          Thankfully, I don’t think smk gets this balance wrong too often.. and usually stereotypes are done in a charming way on smk (IMHO).

          Does Agnes’ stereotype get turned on it’s head? Hmm we’ll see on that one… too soon to say.. [very sorry this is so slow everyone- this speed won’t last forever I promise!!]

          But yes James ended up being much more than he appeared on the surface – which I loved.. and I really enjoyed his character, but it was in spite of the over the top stereotyping- don’t get me started..

          Yes I love that smk plays on the stereotypes.. I’ve always loved that it smashes the whole suburban mum ideal and the peacefulness of the suburbs right out of the water! 🙂
          Hi Everyone!!! Hope you are all well.. what you guys contribute to this blog is amazing!!! 🙂
          Thanks for putting up with my grumpiness 😉

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          1. I do understand your annoyance with OTT, Iwsod.

             I’m also pretty sure we’re all quite happy to “put up with” you, grumpy or not. 😀

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             1. Ah bless you!!! thanks!

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          2. I think US-made shows were overall more obvious/less subtle in their story-telling and character portrayal. I used to particularly notice this difference in the comedy shows – with a few exceptions the US comedies were not nearly as cleverly written or witty as those from the UK. To be fair, the style of US shows was (is) completely different, so perhaps it is an unfair comparison.
             I have watched very little TV in the last decade but from what I have seen it seems US TV has “grown up” (excluding the obvious junk like “reality” TV, game shows and the like) and the calibre of the writing and acting has improved considerably – subtleties and nuance are no longer considered too difficult for the audience to “get”.

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          3. You’re not grumpy, Iwsod (at least I don’t think so!) — just passionate. They did pile it on to Agnes when you spell it all out like that. I think SMK uses stereotype effectively as a comic device, but that is not the case here and it runs the risk of falling flat.

             I don’t think I was too involved in the WTAMrBrand posts to know what has already been said (and no doubt I am again rehashling old comments), but I have a different take on that stereotype and it ties in to your very insightful point about the moral of the story. The whole premise behiind the ep was that James was more than the charicature (hmm, sp??) that he personally saw himself as. The character himself played his own James Bond stereotype to the hilt, then SMK countered by doing the same OTT accountant stereotype to the character, but I do feel that was to very specifically support the ending, that James was more than he gave himself credit for, and that steroetyping is short-sighted and limiting. I see it as SMK using itself as its own punchline target. I definitely agree with the comment that US shows back then were not very subtle with their comedy and this demonstrates that! Thankfully, SMK did not often fall over the edge into slapstick and I think our episode discussions here show that SMK wasn’t so bad, having many little nuggets of humor tucked away for our discovery and delight!

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             1. awh! thanks raffie! you know.. I forgot to mention her pearls! lol!

                I love your thoughts on James – If you have time I’d love to hear what you think of WTAMB. I think that episode was one of the most interesting to walk through – I discovered so much when I stopped focusing on the annoying Mr Brand and looked a little deeper.. I think some of us came to the same conclusion as you – plus identity was explored in a more personal way with James.. with Amanda too.. oh heck.. I love WTAMB I could go on and on.. but.. I’ll just say – if you stop by the posts on that I think you’ll enjoy it 🙂

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                1. I may get the chance to do that as it’s next up for the morning treadmill! The challenge is finding the time to read through all the great posts! Enjoying this episode discussion very much 🙂

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    4. My spices are alphabetized as well and by choice. It needed to be done once I realized that I had 5 jars of sage as well as many other duplicates.

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       1. Cindy, I guess you would consider alphabetizing your pantry to be “sage advice” then, huh? 😉

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          1. GRoan! I can’t believe I missed this first time around! Well played, 2Golrens, well played.

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11. I’m with iwsod in not liking how Amanda and SMK stereotype Agnes as a librarian. (Why does a ‘librarian’ have to be like this anyway?). The way she’s dressed (the hairstyle, the glasses, the pearls, the apron) when she’s actually very attractive and quite young, how she’s supposed to behave (scared, timid), the alphabeticised spices (what’s wrong with that though?), the unadventurous pie (apple, not pomegranate and rhuburb) and Amanda’s reinforcing these grate me a lot. Especially since Amanda has suffered from these stereotypes too (just a housewife from Arlington with two boys and a morgage).
    Amanda’s subsequent compassion towards Agnes does calm me down a bit though.

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12. Ok. I just watched these scenes. It kind of seems to me like there is a bit of a stalemate competition feel going on between Lee and Amanda. Maybe it begins with him taking her to M Street and his enjoyment in watching her there. Then he tells her to relax and she responds with her comment about feeling like a piece of meat. Then they move to Billy’s office and Lee is all business like and Amanda is concerned about Agnes and how she is going to take the sweep for a bug. And maybe the competition moves a bit to the way they each would handle the interview. In Agnes’ apartment it looks like Amanda is going to do all the talking while Lee does the silent sweeping. I wonder if Lee is somehow slightly defensive about the M Street pick up life style and Amanda may be championing lonely women who want someone to just love them and have a real relationship? Could the Lonely Hearts Club comment kind of be about that? I get the feeling that Lee feels some justification when he finds the bug, but Amanda can immediately zone in on how the betrayal will hurt Agnes. Then the two of them come to the point and it reminds them of the commonality that they have both found with each other; love and slowly building a real relationship.
    I don’t know if any of that is accurate or what others are seeing, but I thought that I would put that out there.

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13. I need to watch this part of the episode to see if my thoughts about this scene gel, but I think the full light of day kind of goes on for Lee here. I think he knows something is growing between them, I think he has been enjoying letting himself enjoy Amanda and their time together and the way it makes him feel. But I think he hasn’t labeled it as of this moment. And I think hearing the term love and patience and it is in the context of his close working relationship with Amanda and the context of the odd relationship between Agnes and Nick ( I need to develop those thoughts more, but I am wondering if the scene in Billy’s office before this is highlighting some of that context) something clicks for Lee. I also think Lee is scared of love because of his past, but I think here he immediately connects “we are talking about love, when you’re talking about love you have to be patient” with everything he feels towards Amanda. I think Amanda senses the shock waves, but I am not sure if she can completely understand what is going on in his head. I wonder if this happening against the back drop of the Nick/Agnes thing may highlight what Amanda may be grappling with. Could this thing she have with Lee be love, could it be permanent, could he really be the one for her and she for him? I don’t think at this point that Amanda has settled that for herself either, but I think she may be getting closer to deciding to risk her heart with him – closer but not quite there. I think all of this could be bubbling just barely under the surface here in Agnes’ apartment between them.

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    1. Oops, I should have said, to clarify, that I don’t think Amanda was speaking about anything other than what she saw going on with Agnes. I do think she was being boldly Amanda understanding “normal people”. I think she has comfortable embraced the fact that is a strength that she adds to their partnership. I sometimes get the sense here that she feels she is schooling Lee on these things. I think their responses take both of them by surprise.

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       1. I so completely agree, Morley. I think Amanda’s statement was meant totally at face value, but it sort of sucker-punched Lee in a way he didn’t expect. I wonder if Amanda noticed Lee’s reaction and interpreted it the same way I do? I always suspected she did.

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          1. Oops, I really need to learn to read to the bottom of the comments before posting my own “original” insights Sorry!

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       2. Great comments, Morley! Thank you for sharing all that’s in your head!

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14. I always thought that Amanda was intent on Agne’s situation when she said, “Lee, we’re talking about love. When you’re talking about love you have to be patient.” But as soon as the words were out both she and Lee were stunned silent for a few seconds as they realised how those words resonated personally for them.

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    1. I totally agree with you, Kiwismh!

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       1. I agree with kiwismh too. I see this as a moment where Amanda acts as Lee’s teacher and guide (in matters of the heart), as we often see Lee act as Amanda’s teacher (in the ‘intelligence’ business)

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