9/29 Season Three, Episode 11: Wrong Way Home–Scarecrow and Mrs King

58 thoughts on “9/29 Season Three, Episode 11: Wrong Way Home–Scarecrow and Mrs King”

1. I love how both Lee & Amanda responded in this scene. He’s so gentle and patient and has to ask because of the job. At the same time, this has got to feel REALLY weird because they’re starting to be established as moving closer to romance at this point and here’s your current interest wanting to know the details of your divorce. I would be interested to see if she’d have been as reticent telling Billy about what happened if he’d been the one to ask.

   I’m also a naturally private person though, so I might not be the best one to judge on it.

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2. I’m of two minds regarding this scene of Lee asking Amanda about her marriage to Joe. On the one hand, I agree with those of you who feel Lee is just trying to help her and is being so tender and caring with her, especially when you watch his facial expressions and listen to the tone of his voice. His body language gives me no indication that he is prying or asking any of this out of personal curiosity. But the words themselves drive me batty and totally feel like prying and personal curiosity! My personal take is that the writers and BB were not on the same page on this – the writers wanted him to be making it personal but BB understood Lee’s journey better and knew he wouldn’t do that at this point so he did his best with what he had to work with. I would have been so much more comfortable with him asking her to tell him more about Joe’s personality in general – how he handled conflict, had she ever seen him pushed to do something out of character – the kinds of things he would have asked someone else in this situation. It’s ridiculous to me that any investigator would ask for details of a divorce that happened 4ish years ago when investigating a murder that had just taken place in another country and had nothing whatsoever to do with Joe’s relationship to Amanda even if he had done it. I would have responded just like Amanda with a “why? What could this possibly have to do with anything?” But like you, iwsod, I see no indication of anything but sincerity in Lee so I’m going with your take.

   As for Lee, I think this scene with Amanda taught him a lot and actually hurt him a bit, but it was a necessary hurt. He trusts her so completely, and he knows she trusts him completely with her life, but I don’t think he realized until this scene that for women at least, trusting someone with your physical life and trusting them with your emotions are different processes and while he has earned one from Amanda, he hasn’t really even put much effort into winning her trust with her emotions yet. He has been so hot and cold with her the whole time they’ve known each other, and he hasn’t always even been kind. Amanda is quick to forgive but she would actually be stupid in my opinion to fully trust him emotionally right now. After all, his horrible question about where she got her black dress so he could get one for Leslie wasn’t all that long ago. We know he has changed, but she doesn’t. He has some work to do, in my opinion, to earn her emotional trust.

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   1. I forgot to check the box to be notified of future comments so now I’m doing that. 🤦🏻‍♀️

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   2. Really like what you have written about him not earning her emotional trust yet.

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3. Pesky Shamba-not-Shamba!! I wanted to hear the rest of this conversation! Why, Amanda!?! Why are you feeling a little uncomfortable in this situation??? Because of Joe? Because of Lee? Because Joe is a murder suspect? Because your worlds are getting blended up together at warp speed!!? Because you don’t want to tell Lee what went wrong? Because you don’t want to think about what went wrong? Argh!!!

   It is interesting to me what Amanda chooses to observe and bring out about Eva in Lost and Found and Lady Bromfield in Bromfield Hall. Both times she says something to the effect of “She’s not in love with her husband.” But she also implies that perhaps these women are indeed fond of their husbands, just not in love with them. To me, an observation such as that would be best seen by someone who has been there. I think as has been said, she does love Joe, he actually is a “great guy”, and because of her character (and Joe’s , too), she doesn’t deface him. Also, I have always seen Amanda as a Daddy’s girl (not saying she and Dotty aren’t super close, but just something about the way she refers to “Daddy” throughout the series), and so I think she values a father/child relationship in such a way that she makes a point to keep that relationship for Jamie and Phillip just as important by not speaking ill of Joe. I think she is grown up enough to see that their issues as husband and wife don’t make either of them bad people, and that going into detail about their shortcomings really aren’t productive uses of her time. If she sees even the remotest chance of Lee as part of her future here, that means he could eventually have regular interactions with Joe, and will also play a part in the boys’ lives, so I don’t think she would want the Lee/Joe relationship to be tense either, at least not due to anything she would have said. I also don’t get the impression that Joe would speak ill of Amanda, either. I don’t think Amanda “idealizes” Joe, I think she just chooses not to speak bitterly and resentful towards him to others, so she doesn’t really divulge the negatives of their relationship (surely there is hurt there – divorce and hurt of some level are intertwined). So all that being said, I don’t think it’s that she doesn’t want to tell Lee about what went wrong in her marriage or doesn’t trust him to know about it, but perhaps she would rather do it in a different time and place, not in the middle of a murder probe at the office when someone can walk in at any time when her mind is in overdrive processing the speed at which her world is being knocked around and blended. And bless Lee, he is so patient with her here. I think they are both just showing great maturity and thoughtfulness for those they care about in this episode.

   As a side note, I am a child of divorce, and so because of things I have experienced, I say that I have great respect for how Amanda does NOT slam Joe here and chooses her words with restraint. I think it shows a great deal of integrity on her part, moreso than it shows a lack of trust in Lee. That’s totally my putting my personal experience into it, and maybe not what was intended. Also, to me, it says to Lee that this woman will be loyal, respectful and protective to someone she loves, regardless of the situation.

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4. Oh, you all have so many good things to say here, and I’ve enjoyed reading all of them. I tend to think that Lee was asking more because of the job here, but there is an element of personal. He wants assurance that Joe is the “good man” he’s heard about, not someone who would commit murder. Since there’s a possibility Joe would contact Amanda if he returns (and we know he has), he wants to be sure Amanda isn’t at risk in any way. This is both professional and personal, since Amanda is both co-worker and potentially-more-than-friend.

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   1. this sounds good to me debilyn! so glad you were able to stop by – and that you shared your thoughts even though we’re a few posts along – this doesn’t matter at all!! always fabulous to hear what you or anyone reading thinks!

      Soooo all you readers – feel free to comment on any post at any time! The only rule here about what you comment on is – don’t jump ahead of where the story is at in the current blog post! 🙂
      Oh there’s a second rule: SMK is for fun!!! Make sure you are having fun!!! 🙂

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5. Pingback: 13/ Season Three, Episode 11: Wrong Way Home–Scarecrow and Mrs King | "Just walk with me.."

6. I read through some of the comments this morning and see that more have been posted. I haven’t been able to read through all of them yet, so I hope once again that I don’t repeat anything. Of the ones I’ve read, they’ve been pretty awesome and very thought-provoking.

   I did want to say something about Law school as I did attend for a brief moment in time. It was a misguided attempt to do something other than teach. If you are just going for a J.D. or Juris Doctor and going full time it takes three years to get that degree, four if you go part time. If you want a higher degree it obviously take more time. I don’t know of anyone who did it in only two years, even with Pre-Law classes. Also, that is some of the hardest work and studying I have ever done. I was either going to bed or getting up at the crack of dawn. It takes a toll on you and can take an inordinate amount of your time. I can’t imagine it with a new marriage and newborns. This had to be a lot for Joe and Amanda to deal with and work out. He was most likely already an absent husband and father.

   Also, I’m not necessarily sure what the disclosure situation is in a divorce proceeding. In some typs cases full disclosure is given to both parties in order to present a case. It depends on if the case actually went to court or was done in absentia, especially if Joe was already out of the country. Therefore, Amanda may not have ever seen Joe’s information and may not have asked to see it at the time and just let things go.

   There is an interesting dynamic going on with Lee and Amanda right now. He is the one seeking info while she is avoiding giving any. I like how he is treading lightly and being gentle in his pleading with her for that info. I think that Lee had a tendency to automatically shift into case mode when necessary or if things became uncomfortable. He could easily put the Scarecrow mask in place and move on. He had so many years of practice in doing so. But he has learned how to balance that in dealing with Amanda.

   I’m glad that Spiderweb came up. Their body language in these two scenes in very interesting. Lee has gone from being authoritarian and closed off with his arms folded to being on her level and trying to be open with her. Amanda is the one that now has a mask firmly in place. They had been so in tune with one another. Normally they are communicating well with their eye-speak and usually in each other’s space or touching. Here they are separated by a desk, not really communicating and so out of sync and off balance. I would love to have seen the first instance when they finally saw each other and what the reactions were.

   I am a bit irritated with Amanda here. She is so hesitant about opening up to Lee and I can somewhat understand her reasoning, but Lee has come through for her so many times and has proven that he will be there for her and take care of her. She has pushed Lee to open up to her and even went behind his back in Wizard and used Francine’s card to read the files about Dorothy. And then told Lee it was because he wouldn’t talk to anybody and was trying to handle it himself. He let her know then that he appreciated her and that it was important that she cared. She then proceeded to tell him that he should also seek professional help. He listened and did what she suggested and ultimately thanked her for her support. He is now trying to do the same for her and she is unwilling to let him be there for her. I find it a bit unfair.

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   1. Unfair is the perfect word for it, valeriejw!

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7. Ahhh, love this scene – one of my favorites of the series. Ever since the start of season 3 we’ve seen Lee begin to change more and more. What started in his subconscious (yes, BJo did use that word 😉 ) at the end of season 2 is now growing and changing how he thinks and behaves toward other women and Amanda in particular. This case is a complete blend of personal and professional for both Lee and Amanda. It’s personal for Amanda because of Joe – she doesn’t think her ex is capable of murder and she doesn’t want Lee to go “all Scarecrow” on him and arrest him for murder on something she’s said. She is being loyal to Joe and I don’t think she wants to give anything to Lee to make him think that there is any way Joe could be guilty. This is personal for Lee because of Amanda – he has such strong feelings for her, friendship, love, whatever they are – he has to investigate Amanda and Joe’s past to get clues about Joe and how that may affect what he may do now back in the states. There is no other information source – Amanda is the best one and Lee knows she has good instincts. I do think he is personally curious about her divorce, but I think he is asking these questions because of the case. No case – no questions; this topic is not something they’ve discussed in the past nor is it a likely candidate for a near-term future discussion. I don’t think he is digging for dirt or anything like that, but when I see that little smile in his eyes when he says “even if it’s tough”, I think he is trying to encourage her to talk to him about her marriage in a kind way and acknowledging that he understands it may not be easy for her. I think he is being very gentle. If this were an unknown person instead of Amanda, Lee would probably be on his feet and far less gentle in his tone and more stern in his facial expression.

   I think it hurts Lee that Amanda won’t share anything with him about her divorce, about “what went wrong with my marriage”. I also think it tells Lee that he still has a way to go in Amanda’s eyes as far as a romantic relationship goes. She may trust him completely with work, but she obviously doesn’t have that same level of trust on the personal side. I think for Lee, he trusts Amanda with both. I think when he says “I can read, Amanda”, he sounds a little bit frustrated and disappointed. He wants her to trust him like he trusts her and I think he is disappointed that she doesn’t – I think perhaps he may be a little surprised as well; I think he thought she would open up to him even if it was tough. Poor guy – I really feel for him. I don’t like how Amanda treats him in this scene – I know I said that in a comment on the last post and I’m sticking with it. I feel like Amanda is not giving Lee nearly enough credit to understand people and relationships and to be careful with them. This bugs me because she was treated like that for almost two years by Lee from a professional point of view and didn’t like it, but here she is treating him in a similar manner. Too bad Amanda – guess it’s like how she treated Agnes in JEG. I thought her treatment of Agnes was due to Amanda’s professional growth and hardening, if you will, but here I don’t think it’s that, I think it’s all personal and I don’t like it. Lee is trying to help Amanda, he is trusting her instincts that Joe isn’t guilty, and yet she isn’t helping him help her. Surely she could give just a little bit. I do feel bad for both of them even though I don’t like that Amanda won’t share.

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   1. I really like what you wrote here and pretty much agree with you, but I am not as disappointed in Amanda’s unwillingness to share/fear of being vulnerable with Lee. But, maybe that is saying more about my character if I identify so strongly with her behaviour at this point. 🙂

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      1. Thanks, Cindy, and I must admit that I really don’t get Amanda. I find that I don’t relate well to her character. Sometimes I feel like I get Lee a whole lot more, or at least in how I perceive his reasons for what he says and does. I also have more sympathy for Lee at this point in the series than I do for Amanda, so she’s the one I want to penguin slap even though she may not deserve it. I want her to put her emotions aside and just give the man something! He deserves her trust here, I think, and so I think she should make herself do that even if she doesn’t want to. Of course, it is much easier said than done. I would probably react like Amanda if I couldn’t see what I’m seeing here with Lee, so I shouldn’t blame her.

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         1. I think that there is probably as much broken and blocked up in Amanda as there is in Lee, well maybe not as deep because Lee’s stuff started when he was a little boy. But anytime a person blocks like Amanda is here, there is a reason. It maybe that she doesn’t want to open up because she doesn’t trust the person. I am not sure if that is the case with her and Lee though. I think she does trust him. But she is still blocking and that is what makes me think that there is a disconnect for her within her own self, and I would chalk that up to some coping mechanism that worked for a period of time but is going to be harmful if she continues in it.
            I do think she trusts Lee, but I think you pointed out here that she trusts him professionally but it doesn’t appear that she trusts him emotionally. I think you are right, but I am not sure if it because she doesn’t think Lee deserves her trust or if she just doesn’t trust a man emotionally period. Maybe she wants to, but she is scared? Maybe she hasn’t had time to really work on it? I do think the suddenness of this whole situation is a huge culprit here. And yet, I wonder if this had never come up if the two of them would have continued to wander around in life just holding hands and never allowed themselves to go any further out of fear.
            They both have so much fear (for two brave spies, what was that Amanda said to Lee about not being scared of bullets but of tears instead?). What is that quote about perfect love driving out fear? How does one decide what perfect love is??? And know when you can trust it and let it cast out fear???

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         2. I’m laughing because it’s as though you’re channeling all my “gut-reaction” thoughts that I have been trying to submissively push aside. I admit to being a softie for Lee, so all that you have said here rings true, loud and clear for me. Sure I still like Amanda, but that doesn’t keep your little “blurt” from being spot on for me!!

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8. I like how Lee hasn’t lost sight of the seriousness of this case involving Joe. I think one of Lee’s strengths has always been that he doesn’t lose focus on what’s important and tends to business in spite of whatever he’s feeling personally. Over the last couple of years, he’s gotten better at acknowledging and dealing with his own feelings, but he still remembers not to let them interfere too much with what he needs to do at the moment. He has a vested interest in understanding Amanda’s past relationship, but he’s pressing for the knowledge here because he needs it to deal with the current situation.

   I think that Amanda’s reticence also worries him. One of my teachers once pointed out that not telling people the real source of a problem often leads them to suspect the worst; whatever they imagine is bound to be worse than the actual truth. The more Amanda holds back here, the more I think Lee worries about what the truth actually is, and that’s why he bluntly asks her what went wrong. He wants to know the worst right up front: Is Amanda holding back because Joe has some dark secret? Is there a dark side to his personality? Could he have been involved in something illegal or unethical in the past?

   Amanda tells him that Joe is actually a great guy, and I think that she’s trying to reassure him that Joe isn’t hiding any dark secrets, but as long as she doesn’t tell him more, I think Lee still has that worry. Joe may be great in a lot of ways, but he can’t be perfect if he ran off to a foreign country, leaving his wife and kids behind. (That may not be what actually happened, but at this moment, Joe really is a fugitive, being sought by the authorities as a murder suspect. That leaves him open to the worst suspicions.)

   I have to admit that something else that I thought of while watching this was whether or not Joe had ever hit Amanda. I’m not talking about habitual abuse, I don’t think she would have stood for that or defended him afterward if that was the case, but I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that he had slapped her once. Lee accidentally hit Amanda in Burn Out, while he was pretending to be drunk, and he felt horrible about it, appalled that he had done such a thing, even by accident. Amanda was pretty stoic about the whole thing and still stood by him, even putting in a good word for him to Billy. Later, Amanda didn’t even seem to want to hear Lee’s apologies about it, as though it didn’t really matter. Really, Lee seemed more shaken by the incident that she was, more worried about Amanda’s feelings about it than she was (at least outwardly). Lee had to tell Amanda that things weren’t okay and that he wanted to do something to make them more okay.

   Amanda’s reactions to the incident always left me a little uneasy about it. I just felt that she didn’t say enough, kind of brushing the incident away. It made me wonder if Joe had ever slapped her during an argument. I don’t think she’d ever stand for Joe or anyone else hitting the kids, but her behavior made me wonder if she would let Joe slap her and not complain about it, even saying that he was still basically a nice guy, like she did with Lee, blaming his behavior on the stress he was under at the time or something. I could be way off base, but if Joe had slapped her once in the heat of an argument, it would make Amanda’s behavior in Burn Out a little more understandable to me. I could imagine her saying to herself that she’s experienced something like that before and that she knows she’ll be okay and that she doesn’t need any explanations from Lee about it. Her understated reaction to Lee’s slap just suggests to me that maybe this has happened to her before, while Lee’s distress over the incident says that he’s never done anything like that before. I hope I’m explaining this well enough. It may not be true, but it’s just kind of a suspicious thought that I’ve had lurking for awhile.

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   1. Jestress, I can see what you are saying about Joe… I don’t know either, but your explanation makes some sense in terms of Burn Out. I will add those thoughts as I watch Joe and Amanda interact through out the rest of the episode.

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   2. Jestress, I almost wrote in my comment yesterday that I’ve always had an idea in my mind that Joe may have had an alcohol problem when he was younger and had perhaps verbally or physically abused Amanda on occasion. It’s an idea that has particularly been rolling around in my mind for a year or two now as the basis for a fanfic I will never have time to write.
      I didn’t mention it yesterday as I thought the idea might generate some negativity from others..
      I’d be tempted to say “great minds think alike” but I think your mind and certainly your writing talent is far greater than mine.
      In my scenario I imagine Amanda persevered and helped him to overcome the problem.

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      1. Actually, it makes me feel better that I’m not the only one who gets suspicious thoughts like that. I almost didn’t say anything either because that theory does seem a little too dark for SMK. SMK doesn’t typically go to the dark side of things, and that’s one of the things I like about it, but like I said, Amanda’s reaction in Burn Out kind of unsettled me a bit. When she walked out of the bar just after Lee struck her, it seemed natural; she was hurt and trying to leave with dignity. I guess even trying to defend Lee to Billy wasn’t so bad; he wasn’t behaving normally and she was still holding out hope that she could help him become more like his old self. It’s really the part at the end where she doesn’t even want to talk about the slap to Lee that bothers me.

         Amanda keeps insisting that it’s alright and she knows it was just a cover and Lee doesn’t have to explain. Lee does the right thing by telling her that it’s not okay and that he’s sorry. I think his insistence on explaining himself and apologizing really does make things okay with Amanda, but the first couple of times when she tries to tell him that it’s okay and that she understands, something about the way she looks and sounds says to me that she’s not okay. Usually, Amanda lets Lee know when she’s not okay with something, but that time, she didn’t. She was pretty up front about how he scared and hurt her by pretending to be dead in Remembrance of Things Past, but when she suddenly clams up about the slap and is unwilling to admit that it bothered her at all really bothers me. I would have felt much better if she’d said even a little bit more like, “To tell the truth, I was more worried about you at the time than I was about myself. I knew that you wouldn’t do anything like that unless there was something really wrong, and I was mostly upset because I couldn’t think how to help you.” That would have been in character, but she seems too disturbed to say much of anything at all.

         It could be just the way the writers decided to do it, but it just seems out of character, and that’s what makes me wonder if there’s something in her past, something that happened with Joe that made her react like that. That would be another reason why she might not want to talk about it with Lee, because he might feel worse about his accidental slap. I might have an overly suspicious mind, but it wouldn’t surprise me if Lee thought about this, too. I think he’s seen enough of the dark side of other people to think of stuff like this, and he’s probably going to keep thinking the worst until Amanda tells him more.

         I almost wrote a fanfic on the theory that Joe had struck Amanda or one of the kids once, but I don’t really do the dark stuff well. I had thought that Lee and Amanda might revisit the slap incident sometime and Lee would tell Amanda that if anyone ever does anything like that again, she should hit them back, and if he ever does anything like that again, she should hit him twice. I think that he would encourage her to stand up for herself. 🙂

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         1. Well if you don’t do the fanfic – can I do it?

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   3. Really like your comment, Jestress, especially the first three paragraphs. I think Lee is trying very hard to be professional but of course he cannot completely keep the personal out of it.

      I’m not sure what I think about the idea of Joe hitting Amanda. Her reaction to Lee’s slap in BO never really bothered me, but I’m not sure how I would react if I were slapped like that by a good friend and work partner. Because of that, I’m not sure how to judge Amanda’s reaction. I think what you wrote makes some logical sense, so I wouldn’t dismiss it but I’m just not sure what to think about it. It is interesting to think about though, and adds a dimension of reality to the show that we don’t often get.

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      1. I’m not entirely sure, either. It could just be the way the scene was written that gave me an odd feeling. It could also be that, like Lee, I think the worst because Amanda hasn’t really explained much about how it really was.

         I like what Morley said earlier, too, about how odd it was that Amanda made that comment about children growing up without a father in The Long Christmas Eve. Maybe, in her mind, Joe isn’t completely gone from their lives or maybe she regards his absence from their lives as temporary, in spite of the divorce. But if he’s talked to the boys at all in the last couple of years, we haven’t seen it, and they don’t even talk about him much. Really, Amanda and her mother have been raising the boys.

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         1. Something else that I’ve been wonder about is a comment Amanda made in The Mole about how it was unfortunate that David and his ex-wife hadn’t had children because they can really make a difference in a marriage. I’m wondering what difference the kids made in Amanda and Joe’s marriage. Having kids didn’t stop them from getting divorced, but maybe she means that it made a difference in the way that they settled things or in the way that she thinks about Joe after the divorce?

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9. It occurred to me that this conversation is a bit like the one in the cafe during Wizard, only the roles are reversed. It also occurred to me that Amanda’s answers are a bit more like Lee’s during that scene in Magic Bus right before they are caught by the Weasel faced man.

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10. I like 2Golden’s idea. I think she is bundle of conflicted emotions and has had no real time to prepare for it. Added to that she is concerned for Joe and maybe even her families welfare. I can see this being an exceptionally difficult moment for Amanda. On top of that it is Lee who is asking these questions. I wonder if it wouldn’t have been easier to talk with another agent with whom there wasn’t this growing emotional connection, although she appeared to be holding back from Billy too, but maybe that was because she wasn’t sure who knew what yet.
    I would think a woman like Amanda, who valued family so highly, would hold out a desire (even if her emotional reality wasn’t there) to reconcile. And maybe because of that she hasn’t really processed the divorce completely emotionally. She has said things in the past that didn’t jive for me. I am thinking specifically about the conversation in the car int The Long Christmas Eve when she said that she couldn’t imagine children growing up without a father (or something like that) and I always thought that was odd considering her kids basically had no father around. Maybe she hadn’t really worked through the reality of her divorce because of her strong view of marriage. hat could leave room for a hope of getting back together in order to have a whole family again.
    Having this case come up now, at this stage in her relationship with Lee kind of pushes her to a place of honesty that I personally don’t think she was ready to go to. Why is she not ready? Maybe because that is a lot of emotional work to do especially if she had been avoiding it, and right now she is just worried about everyone’s safety due to this new development in Joe’s life. And I also don’t think she is sure of Lee. Because of his past with women, because he isn’t a family oriented guy (that she knows of). I think she may not even be sure of herself. One man left her because he wanted to pursue an exciting and dangerous job, would Lee want her long term?
    Would he want what, ultimately she wants? I don’t think she thinks he would.

    I do think Lee is delving into this here because of the case, and yet, I think it hurts him that Amanda won’t open up. He is frustrated on a professional level, but I think it hits him on a personal level as well. Maybe he is only beginning to realize how much he would like her to open up to him. Maybe this is illustrating to him how much he desires to carry her heart carefully. I think Lee is learning a lot about loving someone as he sits on the opposite side of his desk trying to have this conversation with Amanda. I love the way his voice sounds when he says her name, and the tone of his voice when he speaks to her. He does want to know about what went wrong, because it is part of the case, a criminal psychology etc. but I think it is also because it is Amanda and he does love her. But I don’t think he is being manipulative or hiding behind the case. I think Lee is discovering how much he cares about her as he proceeds through this. And he is discovering this even as he is being left unassured of it being returned at the same level and yet, he isn’t getting mad, or closing up. This scene really shows Lee’s maturity, I think it is the first time we have seen this. I wonder if Amanda’s words from JEG about love and patience are echoing around in his head right now?

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    1. whoooo love this Morley – I’m seeing Lee the same way.. blown away by how ‘sacrifical’ he is being with Amanda..
       Lee is not perfect – and asking ‘what went wrong’ was maybe too much too soon, but his care for Amanda is now evident to me (where in previous viewings I had just skipped exploring Lee here in this scene – too focused on Amanda).

       I agree – for me I found Lee in this scene really had me saying to myself – I think he is really truly in love now. this is selfless love.. this is real love.. 🙂

       I also think the idea that Amanda is not as far along as Lee in their relationship plays out here – It is only when walking through the show carefully that I began to see that.. lol before I was too focused on Lee and just assumed Amanda was in love with Lee from the get go and there was no more development she needed to go through there.. oh how wrong I now think I was! 🙂 and ohhh all the wonderful story I was missing!!

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       1. Can I like this twice? Not because you liked my comment, but because of the great story in this show!! I love this story!

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          1. I’ll like your double like 😉 tee hee..

             I was thinking the other day that a certain ‘shades’ movie IMHO makes a mockery of ‘love’ – smk has managed to do what so few shows/movies manage – tell a love story that is a real healthy love between two imperfect people.. no wonder the more I explore smk the more I love it!
             Could a love story like this be done today?? Ohhh I hope so..
             This episode highlights so perfectly where smk has a different take on the love story – but.. I best leave that for later in the episode huh!!! I’m sure it will come up again! okay.. I gotta get to work here! byeee guys!!

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             1. LOL! I was thinking the exact same thoughts! I almost put them here, glad you did. Yes! SMK has done something rare. I wonder if they knew it. I am convinced that KJ and BB knew what they were doing.

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                1. Like like like Morley and Iwsod! SMK is a rare pure note among the noise of most shows/films out there. Bravo to KJ and BB for so vividly bringing this to life!

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    2. I love how you’ve portrayed Lee’s emotions and motivations here, Morley. It feels spot-on to me. It makes me understand even better why I love this episode!

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    3. like this Morley – especially the last paragraph – you said what I was trying to say in my comment but much better 🙂

       I had to laugh to myself when I read what you wrote about TLCE and Amanda not being able to imagine children growing up without a father. I took it totally different 🙂 I took it to mean just that – she couldn’t imagine it because she had a father. I didn’t relate it to her kids not having a father in the picture – that’s just the way it is, so to judge herself for her part in that decision to raise her kids without their father isn’t relevant here to her. I can see thinking that if having a father was something she thought her boys really needed, that she would do what she could to “get one” , but that’s easier said than done! I also wonder if the increasing divorce rates and changing culture of America in the 80s also played a part – women were really starting to come into their own with work, pay, etc. I think there was a bit of an “I can do it on my own” attitutde/feeling in the 80s for women. My teens were in the 80s and I clearly remember thinking I didn’t need a man to live my life and be successful, nor did I want to get married and have kids.

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       1. True, how attitudes were changing and that was part of what SMK was toying with. But… here we have a woman with two kids who has been left… and she has forged ahead to do it on her own, not even an alimony check. And she has added an adventuresome, dangerous and unpredictable job to the “I can do it on my own.” It all works, as long as it doesn’t get disturbed. Ooops, ex husband shows up and handsome partner is all of a sudden showing interest…. How does she maintain the “I can do it on my own” with that going on?

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          1. I don’t know that I would say Amanda has been left. From the way she spoke to Joe on the phone and how she has defended him to Billy and Lee, it makes me think that it may have been more of a mutual decision rather than Joe just deciding to leave. I think if she had been left, Amanda would not still think as highly of Joe as she apparently does. Then again, maybe that’s just how I would react – maybe Amanda can just put away the hurt and pain, but I don’t think so. Or maybe I am defining being left differently than you?

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             1. I think that practically speaking, you are right. It appears as though the divorce was mutual and friendly. In that way I would not use the word “left.” I am responding to Amanda’s desire to be loved and cherished. In that way Joe left. Amanda strikes me as a person who would hold on until it wasn’t possible any longer and then try to give a little more. I guess I see Joe as the one giving up first and Amanda letting it dissolve.

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                1. Hi Everyone!

                   So great to read everyone’s ideas! makes me love this episode even more.. and to think.. I was a bit Meh about this episode before I actually started walking through it. Oh how silly I was 🙂

                   I am hopeful that there is lots ahead in this episode for us to glean what may have happened between Amanda and Joe.
                   Just looking at things so far – Amanda being so closed here in response to Lee’s questioning by itself could look like she is hiding something traumatic – like an abusive ex..
                   However – because of the earlier scene where Joe calls Amanda, for me this is not on the table.
                   Amanda was happy to hear that Joe was in DC. If Joe had been abusive, or if there was any fear in Amanda toward Joe – she would not have reacted the way she did.
                   Plus, I can’t see Amanda being happy abusive evil Joe is back in town and near her two children – mama bear Amanda would have kicked in 🙂 but.. this is just how I’m seeing things.. and I’ve loved all the different ideas! It made me stop and think: Hmm!!! that’s interesting!! Is there a reason why I’m not seeing that based on what’s in the episode? well.. this is the reason I’ve come up with! 🙂

                   As for not being happy with Amanda in this scene – I hear ya BJo (and someone else?? sorry! ) – I agree with where Morley is thinking of Amanda here.. and I cut Amanda some slack. This is all very sudden – and she is not unkind toward Lee here – she is respectful in how she rebuffs his queries – for me she has not closed the door on Lee at all – she has only closed the door on his question of – what went wrong?!

                   I’ll keep this all in mind as we continue.. its strange to think we are only just a little into this part of the story by now ! lol!!
                   I’ve gotta run but I’ll be back tonight my time to publish the next part of the episode..

                   Hope you are all well – and staying warm or staying cool – depending on where you are in the world 🙂

                   may your wives all have many children! Byeee!!

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                   1. I imagine if Joe was abusive it was probably more subtle verbal undermining, or perhaps an occasional push if under the influence of alcohol. Maybe he actually did slap or hit her once. It is something I am sure Amanda would have not stood for – she would have acted quickly I think to help Joe address whatever the triggers were for such behaviour. Professional help was probably part of the solution.
                      Anyway, can’t talk more about Joe as he might have been then and how he is now without bringing future events into the frame. Will get back to that later.

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                      1. I am also finding it really hard to stay in the moment. I see Joe as undermining Amanda, not believing in her, affecting her self-esteem, rather than abusing her actively.
                         I can’t help the fact that I just find it hard to warm to Joe. He’s kind of a Leslie for me – maybe a perfectly decent person, but not the right person

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11. Does anyone else wonder if Amanda is reluctant to discuss her divorce with Lee because deep down she’s kept a small hope that she and Joe would get back together at some point? This also might explain why her relationship with Dean seemed so half-hearted, why she’s moved so slowly with Lee and why she seems so uber-defensive of Joe. For a long time, Lee was just a kind of exciting fantasy for her, not someone–in her rational mind–she ever expected to be more than friends with. Now, Lee’s showing signs of starting to take a relationship with her seriously, she’s starting to acknowledge her feelings for him, and her spy fantasy is starting to blur with reality. Then suddenly Joe reappears out of the blue and her old fantasy (getting back together with him) and new fantasy (a relationship with Lee) are creating a serious conflict for her. Until she can figure out for herself what her true feelings are, she’s keeping Lee at bay. Until she stops and takes a good look back, I don’t think she’ll really realize just how far she’s journeyed in the last couple of years.

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    1. whoooo this is fascinating 2goldens!!!! Love your ideas!

       I think at this point of the episode this is definitely a possibility! I think the writing has left this open so far.. Amanda is very difficult to read so far!
       At this point the audience must also be tense and on edge.. wondering just what will be the outcome??!!! gah!!!

       I’m getting tense.. and I know who Amanda ends up with in the end. haa!

       I think you are spot on when you say Amanda doesn’t yet realize how far she’s journeyed.. I’m thinking in that direction too!

       This episode rocks!!

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       1. Yes, agree this episode rocks

          I like your ideas too 2Goldens.
          My thoughts were wandering in this direction as well. It seems that Joe and Amanda haven’t seen each other for a while and maybe she is not sure how it will affect her seeing him again after such a long time.
          A few years ago, I was meeting my ex-boy-friend for the first time again, after we had split up a view years ago. We’ve been together for six years and the split up was kind of amicable but we have not have any contact for a few years.And out of the blue he was contacting me, if we would like to meet him. I just started a new relationship (my now husband) and I remember that I was a little concerned meeting him, because I was not sure how I would react. I mean I really loved him for a long time and I was not sure that it may hit me again and would fall again in love with him again head over heels. But I did not, I was happy to see him we still stay in loose contact.
          And I consider Amanda being in a similar position. Also this may explain partly why she does not want to discuss with Lee what went wrong with her marriage.
          Actually I always found Lee’s “What went wrong” not really a sensitive approach. And I also always had the same thought as Amanda, I mean “why?”
          What does Lee expect to hear….
          I think he should trust her and also know her that well, that she would tell him in case there are some valuable information to the case.
          Opposed to IWSOD, I always thought he is asking more out of curiosity getting to know I side of Amanda he has not seen yet and which is becoming more and more interesting to him personally.

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          1. I am really on the fence whether Lee is acting out of curiosity (and thinks he is asking because of the case) or asking because of the case.

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             1. fair enough! For me, watching the scene slowly while I blogged it, and picking the screen caps helped to shift my thinking on Lee here.. I had assumed he was being pushy and curious.. but then while blogging it I realised – eek! I actually can’t see that anywhere here! lol.. I’ve changed my mind on it..
                Not that you have to change your mind or even make a decision on either side 🙂
                Maybe you will come to a conclusion as we continue through the episode Cindy.. let us know how you go!

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             2. Like iwsod, I’ve always thought is was (personal) curiosity before, but am now leaning towards personal care of Amanda. I think it’s seeing Lee’s facial expression frame by frame that makes me take a more positive view of his motives. Amanda must be so wrapped in her personal dramas that she’s not watching his face properly, or she’d fall in a lovesick puddle at his feet!

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                1. Love the lovesick puddle. That woman is freaking out because her tupperware is all out of order. She can’t even see the man who wants to help her reorganize the whole dang closet! at least she isn’t noticing him right now…;)

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                2. Being naughty when I should be working! Great to hear from you learjet 🙂 Lovesick puddle? whwhahahaa.. love it!!
                   I mean’t to add..
                   yesterday I started at the top of the page and just scrolled down slowly through the images paying attention to Lee’s expressions.. Try it!!! whooooo!!!
                   I was struck by the rollercoaster of emotions he displays in this one section – and how deeply he is feeling the angst here! Highly recommend it!! (just be sure to have your swoon helmet on!! Lee is looking especially swoony IMHO!)
                   Okay okay.. back to work for me! I better shut this down or I won’t get any work done! byeeee!

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                3. I still am leaning towards the idea that there is an element of personal curiosity going on here. I can give Lee the benefit of the doubt, and say that he is probably unconscious of it. He thinks he is focused on the case, but is approaching it differently than if the woman he was talking to had been someone totally unconnected with him. I just don’t see him asking those same kinds of questions; which is maybe a reason why Amanda is reluctant to answer — because she knows it isn’t standard Agency proceedure. But, the personal element doesn’t mean that he isn’t taking it seriously as a case. And I do think he is taking her feelings about it very seriously, and with concern. The difference is, that because this involves Amanda, he’s already convinced of Joe’s innocence and wants to clear him, instead of approaching it from a really impartial viewpoint like he usually would. That’s probably why he’s probing deeper; because he really does want to know, and that is opening up to him more possibilites for how the criminal psychology might be helpful in the case. That being said, I don’t see his asking “what went wrong” as going too fast. It seemed to me more like he was trying to help her start a difficult topic by giving her a specific starting point.

                   When I think about the possibility that Lee and Amanda are each feeling a little afraid about what discussing this topic might do to their relationship, I can’t help but look at it through the lense of an experience of my own. I’ve worked closely with a guy (you know, hours together, days together) for the past 15 years, and become very good friends. Last year, he told me about a malicious rumor that had come to his attention, to the effect that he and I were . . . involved in some way. I’m glad he told me, because you can get in a lot of trouble by not knowing what people think of you, but it made the situation VERY awkward for a while, more so than I would have thought: not just from the rumor, but the fact that we had to talk about what had previously been an off-limits subject. It was weeks before we were even comfortable talking about work, and months before we really started to be friends again. This scenario keeps playing in my head as I watch Lee and Amanda tread very, very lightly here. So far, their relationship is not officially anything beyond a working one. They are good friends at work, but nothing beyond that has been clarified. I think if they were really in a romantic relationship this would be easier, but since it is still a work relationship, it seems they have both tacitly regarded this as a taboo subject. Now Lee has to pry into it for a work context, and I think both feel like it could have the effect of pushing them apart, or having at least a temporary effect on their openness and communicativeness as friends. And when you work with someone daily, in close contact, having the communication lines snarled can make it very uncomfortable to even get the job done.

                   Iwsod, as I read through the post I was thinking of the parallels to Spiderweb, and thought I would have to mention it in a comment. I was gleeful when I found you had noticed the same thing and did the comparison right there!

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                4. Love it, learjet! I think you’ve just given us a new SMK term…lovesick puddle!

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          2. Thanks for sharing your story MarA – makes lots of sense!!! and it explains why Amanda would be so private about her feelings, and why she wouldn’t want to criticise Joe..

             Joe’s return (even at this point) is a litmus test for Amanda – which can help her to recognise where she is now and how far she’s come – yes in terms of her feelings for Joe – but also IMHO much more widely- it’s not just about the guy! – she’s a much more self assured woman now in life.. and she has a whole new professional life that was completely missing when Joe was last in a relationship with her.. lol this all makes me quite happy Joe has returned! haa!

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          3. I can really relate to what you’re saying here about meeting up with an ex again, Mara. I think we do tend to romanticise a past relationship a bit if it ended well. I think it’s inevitable to think about what might have been if the timing or circumstances were slightly different.
             And having two kids with someone is a strong tie to Joe. And Amanda is very good at putting other people’s needs and feelings ahead of her own so she is quite capable of reconsidering her relationship with Joe for the sake of the boys.

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    2. This is a good point. Part of Amanda’s reluctance to fully engage the way Lee apparently has towards a more intimate relationship between them could be because she is harbouring a sense of “duty” to get back with Joe at some point in the future. I don’t think she loves Joe in that way any more (if she ever did) but I can imagine Amanda getting back with Joe if he returned to the US on a more permanent basis, but really for the sake of the boys rather than her own fulfilment. She would learn I think that a loveless marriage is more harmful to children than an amicably dissolved marriage. Staying together for the kids or to stay within societal or religious dictates is ultimately destructive.
       I say “if she ever did” love Joe in that way because sometimes when you’re young you mistake admiration and friendship for love.

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       1. Hmmm. Interesting points being made here. I have never seen Amanda as someone who would think about getting back together with Joe out of a sense of duty. I am having problems expressing my thoughts on the matter clearly, so I will come back and try later.

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          1. I am with you Cindy, it never crossed my mind that Amanda ever considered Joe in that way. She seemed to be moving on and feeling her way towards something unknown, but new when we meet her in S1.

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12. I think you can get a Law Degree in 3 years, or is it 5? Maybe Joe had already done some study towards his degree but had a break from it, then he met Amanda and decided to get back to it.
    To me he seems older than Amanda by 5 or 6 years. Maybe he was undecided and/or indecisive about what he wanted to do when he was younger and left University for a while. Perhaps for some reason he was not ready or lacked the maturity to commit to anything in particular, or maybe there was just something else going on in his life.
    Then he met Amanda and was ready to commit to her. Maybe she inspired him to get back to his law studies.
    I’ve always thought Joe may not have wanted a child, let alone children, so early in their marriage. This may have been a festering issue between them too, although something they both would have been very careful to keep the children from knowing.
    I need some shut eye but just briefly I see Lee getting Amanda back on track here by firmly but gently reminding her that he has a professional responsibility to investigate this case. He won’t let her duck the issues just because they are friends. But he also does this with sensitivity. I think he wants her to know she can trust him with this deeply personal information – it won’t affect their personal friendship/relationship, or how he feels about her.
    Amanda’s having a real issue with this – I need to give it some more thought. Perhaps along with all the bad memories, hurt and embarrassment at having her “dirty laundry” aired, Amanda is on some level worried that it will affect the way Lee perceives her and ultimately impact on their friendship.
    Just some rambling pre-snooze thoughts. Nighty-night. See you all tomorrow.

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    1. nighty night kiwismh!

       I think starting law school and having a baby in the first year of study would be crazy! It would have been crazy for them both..
       lol.. I’m doing some rambling pre-snooze thoughts of my own. I better get out of here 🙂
       Bye!

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    2. Law school would be started after the person already has a Bachelor’s degree, representing four years of prepatory study. The law school itself could be done in about two years, so the average lawyer has spent six years in school. I would think that Joe took some time away from school to get married; maybe going to law school happened BECAUSE there was a baby on the way and he needed to hurry up and get the education he needs to get a good job. It’s possible that Amanda was working, but would plan on leaving her job when Philip was born, so Joe would need to be the primary breadwinner. I think Amanda also has a four-year degree, so maybe Joe is several years older and they met while he was still in the university, then he got a job and waited for Amanda to finish her studies before they got married?

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    3. I’ve had some similar thoughts, that Joe and Amanda might have ended up having kids earlier than they planned and that Joe found it stressful to suddenly have to provide for a growing family while still finishing his studies and getting his career established. Seems like you and I have been thinking along the same lines on this, Kiwismh!

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       1. Yes, I can’t really comment further about Joe and how he might have been in the past without going into how he is of the rest of this episode but I will re-visit it later on after a few more posts. There are some SMK fanfic writers who do the dark stuff quite well and I am sure you could too Jestress.
          Anyway, as I said, I will leave further comment on Joe until later in this episode.
          My feeling re the issue of having children early is that Joe may have wanted them to have a few years to themselves first, the freedom to travel and come and go as they please, especially if he had an interest in third world issues and wanted to direct his career towards that..
          I’ve always thought the pregnancies were unplanned and possibly slightly resented by Joe. In addition to this commitment giving them less freedom, the issue of having to concentrate on earning sufficient early in their marriage to support a child, and then two years later another child may have been a source of tension between them too.
          I think Amanda would have been surprised but happy about the pregnancies. I always got the feeling that Joe didn’t share her enthusiasm for being tied to home and family so early in their marriage.

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