Finally.. 12 minutes into this episode.. with everything that’s been going on – Lee and Amanda are alone.. and can finally talk.
We find Lee is in the vault..
It looks to me like he is reading a file..
while looking pensive..
Is Lee maybe steeling himself for the conversation they will need to have?
[Amanda hears Lee.. it must be crazy to know Lee is reading about you and your ex-husband and making noises like this.. and you don’t know what he is reading or thinking! gah!! no wonder Amanda is curious.. ]
Lee: Oh, nothing.
Amanda: No, no, really, what?
Lee: Uh, Just— just work on that list Amanda. And ahh be specific, you know, ah, doctors, cleaners, old apartments as far back as you can remember.
Amanda: Yah, I’m getting’ ‘em.
[We see Amanda is sitting at Lee’s desk compiling her list] Whooo Lee has gold fish now? Is this the ‘men’ from saved by the bells?!
Lee: I’m comparing your ES12’s…
[Lee picks up what he had been reading- and brings it toward Amanda at the desk]
…His account of the divorce isn’t exactly the same as yours.
[Umm I would have thought that is perfectly normal!]
Amanda: Well let me see.
Lee: Here, this is yours.
(Lee hands Amanda her ES12)
[whooo it seems at the opening of the scene, Lee was reading Joe’s account and comparing it to Amanda’s..]
Amanda: Oh no, I don’t want to see mine. Let me see his.
Lee thinks for a second..
(Lee hands it over)
Amanda: Thank you.
[Call me crazy, but I would have thought this is a breach of confidentiality. Lee is very generous with Amanda here.. I think he is so gentle with her, he cant’ refuse her.
Amanda IS the case.. she is not the agent on the case so I don’t think she should be reading Joe’s account! (maybe it’s just me!) LOL remember when Lee said ‘you were the case’ way back in There goes the neighbourhood?! I wouldn’t be okay with my ex reading my version of our divorce!! Lee could have said no – but interesting that he doesn’t!]
Amanda reads it and Lee takes a seat..
(Amanda makes a noise like whoo that’s curious!) I bet many a housewife would have liked to see how their ex described things! Now this time, it’s Lee’s turn to be curious at what Amanda is reading and thinking!
Love Amanda’s sneaky little look here..
cheeky.. bashful.. curious.. like she knows she’s doing something naughty by reading this (IMHO) -and she has an audience here – Lee! I get the sense Amanda would love to go off somewhere and read this alone!
Amanda is smiling reading this stuff? lol!!
Slowly.. Amanda’s smile is wiped from her face..
You didn’t expect to read happy things in there did ya Amanda?!
Amanda reads some more: Ohh hoo hoo..
(she seems incredulous to me..she shakes her head at what she’s reading)
Now Lee is curious! He leans forward..
Amanda: Nothing. Oh—
Amanda: Uh, well, it’s just some of this stuff’s a little misleading,…
…you know, it’s the legal talk,…
I mean it says I’m resistant to change and that can’t be me,…
…I was never a stubborn person, I’m just not a stubborn person.
Lee: Well, ha.. you sure know how to get what you want.
(I love how Lee says this – like this is not a bad thing.. it is just the truth! to Joe- this was a trait that made Amanda stubborn.. but to Lee? He just accepts it hmm.. and maybe kinda likes it?! 🙂 )
Amanda: Lee, I’m not stubborn am I?
(Lee smiles.. and chuckles a little)
Amanda: Alright, I’m a little bit stubborn…
(Lee makes a face – like Ahh I don’t know what to say! He is being very careful here.. )
Amanda stops and thinks for a second..
and then continues: Oh look,…
…we just didn’t agree on everything.
(Amanda shrugs.. as if to say – it’s as simple as that.)
What two people in a marriage agree on everything?! (Stepford marriages maybe! ) I can’t wait to hear the thoughts of you guys on this.. Especially those of you who are married.. I imagine you’ll have insights I won’t!
Still, nothing will stop me from sharing my ideas tee hee.. their just ideas!
Reading between the lines it seems to me Joe and Amanda were not able to work out their disagreements… and how interesting.. that makes Amanda ‘stubborn’?! – I think this is an insight into Joe more than Amanda – he couldn’t handle Amanda having her own mind- and didn’t accept any responsibility for their problems. they didn’t agree – so therefore she is stubborn. He wasn’t stubborn! ]
Lee: You care to elaborate on that?
Amanda quietly: No,.. (Amanda pauses and looks at Lee)
… I really don’t.
Amanda smiles at Lee as if to say – sorry but nooo..
Sorry guys.. but I will need to cut this scene in half I want to take my time with it.. so hopefully the frustrations of having it split will be compensated for by the opportunity to take our time, and explore it at a slower pace..
What are you guys thinking at this point?
What do you make of how Lee is acting toward Amanda so far?? and.. what about Amanda?!
My computer is back with the computer doctor!!!Sooo I won’t be commenting till I can get it back – but I’ll be enjoying all your insights and discussions on my phone! I guess for now, my comments will need to be restricted to what’s in my posts.. and you guys -discuss away!! I have written the next post – so it will be published in a couple of days time 🙂
I’ll share my ideas about why Amanda says she doesn’t want to elaborate in the next post.. It’s interesting though how curious Amanda was to read what Joe said.. What do you make of Joe writing that Amanda was stubborn in his explanation of the divorce?! do tell!!! There’s lots to explore before we continue with this scene… I hope you’ll share with us your ideas! bye for now… and back with the next part soon!
Nothing like arriving to the party SIX years late! So much great analysis and perspectives here!
I agree with the folks who theorize that Amanda is a really private person (in spite of being so open and welcoming to others) and that she hasn’t fully processed everything to do with her divorce yet.
And/or maybe she thought she had, but seeing there, in stark black and white, Joe’s words may have dredged up some things she thought she’d dealt with.
And/or she’s seeing/thinking about her marriage and divorce through a completely different lens now, and she’s having to adjust her thoughts about it.
And/or a bit of all of the above plus knowing that Lee hasn’t ever been married or in a long term relationship, that he might not really “get” some of the things she might have to say about her marriage/divorce.
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Wow! Step away for a few days and look at what happens. I am so enjoying reading everyone’s comments and responses and they are all so great and I agree with so much of what has been said. By the way, it’s still me Valerie, but when I went to get an account with word press I couldn’t keep my same username for some reason. I am only tech savvy about some things.
I don’t have too much to add to all of this. There are some things I’m going to hold off saying as they apply better later on. And I apologize if I repeat what anyone else has said. There was a question as to why the files were in the vault and if so, then why hadn’t Lee checked them earlier. I’m thinking that it’s one of those times where they aren’t going to show us every little thing as some things are cut to fit the parameters and timing of the show. I would assume that either Francine or someone else had done some legwork and gotten some info that Lee would need to help him with his case. Once they had the info they took it to the vault for safekeeping and for Lee-only access.
It’s been a bit harder to delve into Amanda’s past issues as she has them so firmly packed away. We’ve learned so much about Lee and his issues and what seems to make him tick, but not Amanda. We know Lee was orphaned and how he handled that, but we don’t know how Amanda dealt with her father’s death or when it even occurred. She hasn’t really been pushed to discuss her divorce or her ex-husband. We know she has been resistant to dating and definitely resisted Dean. Joe was not a real entity or presence until right now. And it’s not as if he’s just back for a visit. He’s back because of trouble. So she is not able to deal with this reality in a way that she can control, and she is off balance and possibly trying to regain some equilibrium.
Lee has gotten to the point where he has been concerned about how Amanda must perceive him. In Burn Out and Wizard he was concerned if she thought less of him. She has given him the confidence to open up more about himself to her. Amanda now must feel the same way in regards to Lee and feel concerned about what he must be thinking of her or will think of her when she tells him about her divorce. That has to play into some of her hesitancy in opening up to him. She knows what he thinks of her as a mother and a partner. He has seen how she attracts other men and for the most part she has been the one to control when those situations have ended. Maybe the divorce hasn’t been one of those situations. Maybe in this instance it wasn’t her choice, her decision, and maybe she sees this as some sort of failure within herself and doesn’t want Lee to see that part of her. I think she has always come across as so strong and in this she may be exposing some of her vulnerabilities.
I think that Lee was so awesome here with how he talked to Amanda. He wasn’t pushy. Amanda has been instrumental in helping Lee to tear down those emotional walls and I think Lee is ready to help her with hers.
I looked up stubborn in the dictionary and it said “having or showing dogged determination not to change one’s attitude or position on something, especially in spite of good arguments or reasons to do so”. Amanda referred to “resistant to change” as legal talk, but she knew it meant being stubborn. It again makes you curious as to just what happened between her and Joe. There is more to come and I need to stop before I get carried away.
Hope everyone who is still struggling with snow and cold are staying safe and warm. Continuing to keep good thoughts for those on the East coast, especially the Boston area. We’ve missed 7 days of school alone this month. However, 3 were because of a Winter break.
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I feel guilty for thinking earlier today while I was mowing my lawns that I would really like less sunshine and heat. Maybe a day or two of gentle rain. I like winter, but then it doesn’t snow where I live. Well, it did once – May 1977 as I recall – about a centimetre deep. It melted away soon enough. 😀
What is “heat?” It was 40 F on Sunday and we were all rejoicing. But, alas it was a tease, we are back to single digits again and all that melted in the “warmth” is now solid ice. I am so glad that some of us are from the opposite hemisphere, it keeps us balanced.
It was 40C here yesterday 😀
But wait…aren’t those the same??? Oh yeah, it’s -40F and -40C that are the same. Hope neither of us get those kind of temperatures!
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Yesterday, we had a windchill of -35F.
Oh good golly! That’s awful! Stay warm happycamper!
It’s about 27C here today but we have a rather thin ozone layer over NZ so with those extra UV rays getting through it’s easy to get sunburned even with brief exposure.
40C would kill me Learjet – I don’t know how you stand it.
Two words air conditioning. Plus the great cool but mild winters make up for it.
It always looks strange how in SMK you never see anyone wearing short sleeves. Except once. Is that because it’s never warm enough to wear short sleeves in DC (a bit harsh given they were in LA 😀 (? Or don’t they like to show their arms?
Jestress has to join the weather report: It’s already spring here in AZ with temperatures in the 60s and 70s F, but don’t hate me! Believe me, summer comes early here, and by May, I’ll be hiding inside with the air conditioning. At the height of summer, we’ll be getting temperatures of 115-120F (that’s about 46C to 48C).
Good question about long sleeves vs. short sleeves in DC. I’ve been there in the summer, and it can get pretty hot. I think that mostly the characters wear long sleeves to look more professional, although I remember seeing Francine wearing short sleeves once. I had to think for a bit about when, but it was in the beginning of Charity Begins at Home. I like that blouse of hers, but I think maybe the neckline shouldn’t be quite so wide. At one point, it looks like it’s starting to fall off her shoulder, and I always hate it when that happens. It feels awkward, having to readjust it.
I remember some short shorts in S1 (Sudden Death). 😉
Short shorts with long socks….
ROFL you guys.. how did we descend into short shorts with long socks.. whahahaa 😉 just kidding!
Sorry I’ve been so absent. Good news though – my computer is home from the computer doctor – hopefully this time it has been cured!
I’m loving all your comments – relishing them!!! but.. life is pretty busy at present, a bit too busy for me to catch up – so sorry but I don’t think I’ll get time to go back and comment. Just know I loved hearing from you all!
However! the walk continues!! I hope you will enjoy the next part which should be published soon! byeeee
Um.. I didn’t notice the socks… my attention was fixated elsewhere. 😉
Love your insight, Valerie, that Amanda is at the point of being concerned with how Lee sees her, the same way he was in Burn Out and Wizard. That would fit with her being on a little slower journey than he is now, and hopefully he’s learned enough to be very safe and supportive of her when she is vulnerable in this way.
Lee is looking particularly handsome in that first screen cap, iwsod! A lot of brown, but it makes his lovely jawline and profile stand out. All we need is a little cheek muscle action….
I think hit may be the “men” from SBTB…the Oriole’s cap made it’s way from Lee’s head to Ragmop’s to Shamba’s! Do we see the goldfish in other prior episodes?
This may be a dumb question here, but why/how on earth are confidential legal things like accounts of a divorce in the Q Bureau vault? Is there no attorney/client privilege here? If not, why wouldn’t Amanda have seen Joe’s account before? Presumably there were there – why else would Lee be posing like that with the file on top of the cabinet if they weren’t in there? And if that’s the case, why is Lee just figuring it out now? And reading it now? I would have thought the guy would be curious before this incident and might have peeked. Maybe not – but it all just feels odd to me. Urgh – this could have been handled much better IMO. Just another minor plot hole, I guess. The Agency has shoddy record-keeping.
Bwahahaha! I think he does!
Okay, I haven’t read anyone’s comments yet, so no idea if I’ll be in the minority here, but c’mon Amanda! I really don’t like how she is in this scene so far. I think she’s not being very fair to Lee and I find it a bit out of character for her. I get that she doesn’t want to talk about it to Lee, but to just refuse to talk about it at all? I guess her trust in him only goes so far. There must be more to where she is with Lee in her heart than we see in the flirting and touching, etc. I don’t think Lee is acting like he’s looking for dirty skeletons in Amanda’s past, I think he’s trying to work on this case. Like it or not, the divorce is fair game. I would love to know why she isn’t willing to open up. Guess the whole divorce is a very big wound that she just doesn’t want to revisit and especially with Lee apparently. I think Joe was right. Amanda is stubborn.
I find it interesting that Amanda immediately equates “resistant to change” with “stubborn” and that Lee equates “stubborn” with “know(ing) how to get what you want”. Not sure I would have defined either of those terms quite that way. I’m still pondering what this might mean. Any thoughts?
I think these two interpretations are very reflective of Amanda within the respective relationships. I suspect Amanda stubbornly resisted the change that Joe wanted, namely to go to Africa. Meanwhile, Lee has plenty of experience with Amanda’s stubbornness when it comes to her getting what she wants. I have always thought Lee was being very tactful with his response!
I’ve been thinking about why Amanda might not want to talk to Lee about her divorce:
1) She is being graceful and dignified about it – respecting Joe and so not talking about it (but seriously blabbing about your divorce on FB is one thing; talking to a close friend and potential romantic partner is entirely another)
2) She is avoiding exploring her own feelings about the divorce, so she won’t talk about it
3) She doesn’t want to let Lee in that far.
I suspect it is number 1, with maybe a bit of number 2 thrown in….
I am thinking she hasn’t really had time to think about it. It wasn’t the topic for the day until she got this alarming telephone call. Even then it was more about where is Joe and what kind of trouble is he in. And now all of a sudden she is fielding questions about her divorce with Lee, who is more than a work partner, but what exactly?
I also don’t think she has had the time to think about the divorce since it happened. She was dating Dean for who knows how long? Long enough to go fishing together, even though she had only been divorced for a year, and then she was job hunting and thrown into the Agency. And then got emotionally involved with Lee. You know, she has got to work the effects of this divrce out a bit before she gets any more involved with Lee.
4) (a la Morley) She hasn’t had time to think about the divorce (rather than avoiding thinking about it) – makes sense: two small kids, money trouble, part-time job, semi-boyfriend (Dean)
But then surely this is an opportunity to talk about the divorce? Isn’t that how a lot of women work through how they are feeling – by talking to a good friend about those feelings? Or maybe she wants to not think about it now because she wants to focus on the matter at hand: clearing Joe’s name
Or 5) She doesn’t want to talk about it because the emotions are so near to the surface. Her whole demeanor here reminds me of myself when I know getting too close to a certain subject is just going to choke me up and I don’t want to cry in front of people. Even though Lee is her best friend, this is still very much a work context, and I would certainly not want to get all emotional in that situation. (Side note: how many times has she gotten teary with Lee, and has it happened recently, since she started feeling more professional?)
Even though the divorce is amicable, there would still be a lot of hurt, probably mixed with other emotions. I think another factor here, is the sudden intrusion of this part of her life into an area she had previously kept far separate. Amanda’s having issues with her tupperware. Joe is in trouble, yes, but the trouble has landed him smack in the middle of the Agency. Amanda doesn’t like it when her family gets too close to her job; she feels protective of them, and not in the purely physical sense where they could come to harm. She has seen a lot, and done a lot since her involvement with the Agency began. She is a stronger person because of it, but in this case stronger also means tougher. She has experienced things she wouldn’t want her family to experience. She’s been in the middle of shooting, and training to shoot back. She has lost some innocence. I think this protectiveness extends to Joe, and I think that’s why she’s so insistent that he would never kill someone. He isn’t a part of this life, and she’d like to keep it that way. When she is forced to look back on their life together, she sees in him what she used to be pre-Agency. In his phone conversation with her, he comes across as quite naive, and not really knowing what to do. I think Amanda would rather he not have to learn, the way she has learned; even while at the same time she values the lessons and the growth she has gained from her work.
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Agree Morley. This is all so sudden and unexpected she must be reeling internally. She’s smart enough to keep her cool on the outside but inside I think she’s been knocked for 6 by this sudden turn of events and what it could mean for her life, her family, her work, and her growing relationship with Lee.
Oops, just went back and put “knocked for 6” in italics as I think the slang may be lost on most JWWM readers. To explain, it is a cricket term meaning the highest scoring whack you can give the ball – it has to go over the outside boundary without hitting the ground. The term “knocked for 6” it essentially means that you a stunned or astounded by a sudden and unexpected turn of events. Blame my lapse into cricket slang on the World Cup which is being held in NZ and Australia at the moment. 😀 NZ v Australia this Saturday, eh Iwsod. 😈
Glad you explained the “knocked for 6” right away, kiwismh. I would have been eaten up with curiosity because, you were right, it was lost on me.
Thank you for explaining that, kiwismh! I’ve heard that expression on some British TV shows and always wondered but hadn’t looked it up. And I agree – I think Amanda has been knocked for 6 here.
My top of mind thought is that perhaps it may have a lot more to do with 3 than we all want to admit. 2 and 1 are in the mix, but I think 3 is the bigger player. Just a gut feeling – which is laughable, right? But it is based on what I see and hear 😉
Not laughable — I agree! Amanda is great about drawing out other people’s emotions but not so great about showing her deep inner self. Here Lee is trying so gently, willing to be a confidante just as she has been for him, and she rebuffs him.
Divorce is such a fraught area, full of emotional minefields, and I can see why Amanda’s reluctant to air it all. She’s a private person and always try’s to cast the best light on people she loves and cares about. I’ve watched family members navigate these waters and see how difficult it can be to come to an amicable middle ground, with the other person and within one’s self. I’ve noticed as people get older their understanding of what happened changes. Amanda was pretty young when she got married and your 20s are substantially different from your 30s in which you generally have a better understanding of yourself. Often your 20s full of figuring out who you are, what direction you’re headed, and what kind of person you are. I don’t know if this makes any sense sense or if I’m just babbling, probably the latter LOL!
I get the feeling that Amanda doesn’t want this past “failed” relationship to haunt her current growing relationship with Lee. To have this past misadventure come to the fore now must be making her feel uncomfortable and may be even a little embarrassed, I think the main thing for Amanda though is the stark reminder of how it can all go so wrong, even with the best intentions. She and Joe have remained amicable but there is bound to have been some bitterness and disappointment with each other at the time, perhaps some of that still lingers. Somewhere in her mind she is (and I suspect has been to this point) harbouring these memories and feelings, and not wanting to replay a similar scenario with Lee. May be this is why she has been holding back more than Lee with their growing relationship.
Lee seems anxious to learn as much as possible about Amanda here – perhaps he is thinking that if they are to have a more intimate relationship, he really wants it to work out and he wants to avoid the pitfalls that occurred between Amanda and Joe. He really wants to know what went wrong so he and Amanda don’t “go wrong”.
I like the sensitivity and supportiveness we see from Lee here as he endeavours to draw more from Amanda without upsetting her. This is a bit of a role reversal for L&A – in the past it has usually been Amanda who has been gently and supportively drawing Lee’s hurts and angers and fears to the surface to soothe and heal.
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I agree with what everyone is saying about what Amanda is doing here and what Lee is doing. And I love the way Lee is handling this, there is such depth in his relationship with Amanda here. I think he really loves her and you can see it in this scene.
But your first sentence, kiwismh, makes me want to yell at Amanda, “don’t you know that avoiding a painful subject just gauntness it will be repeated!”
I guess the way Amanda acts here makes me think that she isn’t as far along in her relationship with Lee as he is. I don’t know if her behavior is due to not having worked through what happened in the failure of her marriage to Joe, or if she doesn’t really believe that Lee would be a candidate for a real, true, committed relationship. Whichever is true or if something else is at work in her, I think Lee has thought through his feelings for Amanda more than Amanda has thought through hers for Lee.I am thinking that Amanda was happy with the flirtation and enjoying some recreational time with Lee, but she wasn’t ready to think about more. Lee, on the other hand has processed a bit more what his feelings for Amanda and acting on them would mean.
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Oh, dear, it looks as though I’m the only one who doesn’t like what Lee is doing in this scene. I think I’ll go back and re-watch it, and wait for the next post and see if I feel any differently.
I know people have mentioned in other places that Lee is using the excuse of the case to dig into Amanda’s personal life, kind of like he used Penny as an excuse t kiss her, and that Amanda can tell this and so she won’t give him any info until he asks in a personal manner. I have followed that line of thought, but, you know what? I don’t see it this time. I see Lee being very careful because this is a potential mine field in so many ways and he really does care so much, and yet he still hasn’t decided how much and in what direction he wants to take things, or can take things. Added to that, Amanda is being rather tight here and that may send all sorts of different messages to Lee. Lots to navigate here for both of them.
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I am in this camp too, Morley. I think there is a lot underneath Amanda’s exterior that we haven’t ever gotten to see on the show. I hope we get to see it here. Just like Lee has things to grow in and work through, Amanda does too. I think we like to see Amanda as the wise one about relationships and people, but she doesn’t know it all and has made plenty of mistakes in the past herself. Perhaps this feeds into why she doesn’t want to discuss it with Lee. Up until this point, Lee’s relationships with the opposite sex have been frowned upon by Amanda. But lately, he’s been changing his ways and we’ve been more privy than Amanda to what he’s going through. I think she doesn’t want to let Lee in on her relationship failure with Joe. I think it is embarrassing to her and makes her feel like a failure. Relationships for Amanda seem to be of paramount importance in her life, so to discuss her failure with Lee, someone whom she is not entirely sure of when it comes to how he views relationships, must not be something she thinks will be a good conversation or perhaps one he could even understand. I think it exposes a vulnerability in her that she’s not ready to expose, especially not to Lee, someone who she has strong feelings for but may not yet know or trust that anything is going to come out of. Does that make any sense? I just think that how Amanda views Lee’s take on relationships is coming into play here with Amanda’s reluctance to discuss her divorce.
I think Amanda may be beginning to realize that she is quickly approaching a crossroads here. I agree that she has been happy with the flirtation and recreational time with Lee, but at some point she’s going to have to decide to go forward or not with their relationship – at least that is what I think she may be thinking. She is not the type to have a fling – not the Scarecrow type – but yet I think she is detecting a change in Lee’s behavior and is unsure about it. Is he seriously thinking about a real relationship? Am I seriously thinking about a real relationship? Up until recently, I think Amanda’s focus has been on her professional development and personal growth. She likes this new side of her life. But this morning she woke up and bam! She’s been knocked for 6 (thanks kiwismh) by the sudden reappearance of her ex and the fact that she has a failed real relationship in her past – how does this sudden interjection of something she’s been able to avoid affect her thinking on her possible future relationship with Lee?
Okay – I’ll stop rambling…probably not making much sense here anyway….
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You have made perfect sense!!! You have crystallized all of the thoughts floating around in my head. Awesome!
No way. .. not possible 😉
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Yes ma’am! 😀 And I would love to go on and comment further and run with all of these ideas, but then I would be running ahead and there is no running allowed in the hallways of JWWM. So instead I will hope fervently that Iwsod’s computer is better soon so we can talk about the rest of this scene and the ones to come 😉
I kind of thought that the reason Lee showed Amanda what Joe said about her in the divorce papers (whether he really should or not) was because he was hoping to spark more conversation from her. He’s watching her reactions to the papers very closely, maybe hoping that she’ll suddenly say something like, “That isn’t true! He’s the one who . . .” or “Well, what he’s really referring to here is . . .” Lee wants to know everything he can find out about Joe and his past relationship with Amanda, and he would naturally want to know more details (if he can just get Amanda to provide some!) and if there’s something that Joe might have actually lied about for some reason.
I also think that it’s not just about looking for insights into Joe’s character for the purposes of the case. That’s a large part of it, but Lee also has a personal stake in knowing what went wrong between Amanda and Joe and why. Even though Lee hasn’t actually said anything about it yet, I suspect that on some level he’s already considering the idea of a relationship between himself and Amanda. In that case, he would want to know why Amanda and Joe split up and whether he might stand a better chance with Amanda than Joe did.
I think Lee may be hoping (inwardly) that Amanda will tell him some undesirable trait that Joe had that Lee can avoid or something that Joe failed for provide for her that Lee can give her. Maybe Amanda will say that Joe never really understood her. Lee understands Amanda pretty well and loves her even though she may be imperfect and stubborn! Maybe the problem was that Joe never allowed Amanda to develop her own interests or let her have a career of her own. Lee takes some pride in helping Amanda develop professionally! Maybe Amanda will confess that Joe hadn’t really wanted to be a father and couldn’t face up to the responsibilities of having a family. Lee hasn’t developed a relationship with Amanda’s kids yet, but he’s already shown in the way he dealt with Alexei in ACM Kid that he enjoys kids and cares about them and their needs, treating them the way he wishes his uncle had treated him when he was young, with understanding and occasional spoiling. At least, I think these may be the sort of things that are running through Lee’s head at the moment, while he’s trying to pry more information out of Amanda and understand more about her past.
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Love your whole comment Jestress. This is what I was thinking but you said it much better! 🙂
Thanks! Some of the stuff that I think Lee might be wondering was what I was thinking when I first saw this scene. The way Amanda is holding back makes you think that there was something else wrong with their marriage that she finds too uncomfortable or embarrassing to talk about, maybe something that they couldn’t even bring themselves to mention in the divorce papers. If it turned out that Joe hadn’t really wanted to be a father, I could see them not wanting to mention it publicly if they could avoid it because the kids would be hurt if they someday found out. (I’m not saying that this is the case, but it was something that occurred to me and might have also occurred to Lee.) I can see Lee on pins and needles, waiting to hear the rest of the story and worrying about what it might be and what if might mean for his own chances with Amanda.
I also like what you said about how, even though Joe and Amanda have kept things amicable, there are bound to be some bad feelings between them as well: hurt and bitterness about old arguments and probably guilt and embarrassment that they weren’t able to work things out between them. There’s never a happy reason for a divorce, and feelings like that would be bound to stay with them for a long time.
I really like what Learjet and Raffie said here. At the time this episode was aired –there was absolutely nothing like it on TV. Plenty of shows had episodes where the ex suddenly shows up and wreaks havoc with the protagonist and the fledgling new relationship (it would make for some great angsty moments and show how brilliant the actor was) but I was blown away about how subtle and different this was. KJ and BB play this scene with great restraint
I am glad that we are taking this part so slowly. I have always struggled to understand this part and yet this is what the producers gave us and I tend to fault on the side that thinks there is a reason for what they gave us so that is what I will work with and find the meaning behind why this scene and the information in it is what we have.
I gather Lee is reading these divorce papers to get some understanding into what kind of man Joe actually is? I also suppose Lee has an ulterior motive in this, although he is trying to also be respectful of Amanda. I mean he could have just gone and really dug into information and taken complete advantage of the fact that Amanda is part of his investigation. But he walks a very careful line here. Investigation added to getting to know Amanda and allowing her to offer up information on her own.
I kind of wonder if this is the first time Amanda has actually looked at her divorce with some distance as perspective. You know, life just happens sometimes and you muddle through the best you can and can’t really reflect on it with any objectivity. I wonder if that is what Amanda has done for the past three years. But here she is allowed a moment to look at Joe’s words. It could be enlightening. And yet she doesn’t give any information, she doesn’t even want to discuss it with the person that she is becoming close to? It almost seems as though she is hiding something. But what? Is she embarrassed about it?
I know I mentioned this once a long time ago, but Joe and Amanda’s history remind me af a family member of mine. She was married to a man who was involved in international conflict resolution. They both were. They lived in Africa in war zones before they were married and I think they both thought that they would continue doing that for a while. They got married and had a child immediately and then my family member had a change of heart. I think it was because her maternal instincts were aroused and she could not fathom taking her baby into that difficult situation. I think also that being a mother made her feel more vulnerable.So they moved to the states (actually right outside DC). Her desire to build a home in the US became a real battle ground. Her husband understood, sort of and yet I think he felt as though she was calling the shots and was holding him back. I think he felt that she had done a bait and switch. And so he became less supportive of their family which bred anger in her and on you go to a divorce.
I don’t see the same bitterness between Joe and Amanda that these two that I know have. Amanda’s personality is very different than my family member. But it makes me wonder if Amanda doesn’t want to dig into what happened because it might arouse negative angry feelings, or abandonment feelings or maybe even guilt that it had turned out that way. Amanda seems like the kind of person who would fight to keep a positive view of someone, she wouldn’t let negativity creep in if she could help it.
but why is she so hesitant to talk about any of it with Lee. Doesn’t she want to get closer to him? Does she? I would think here would be her chance and she is so reluctant. It looks like Lee really wants to know, or maybe it appears to be all work related and Amanda doesn’t to be a job…
Maybe the rest of the scene will clear some of that up?
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Iwsod, your questions made me ponder not just Joe’s view of the divorce, but also Joe’s view of the split. He had an opporunity to follow a dream of making lives better in a foreign country. His wife who promised to be by his side through richer and poorer, for better and for worse, refused to accompany him. Surely there were some stubborn altercations on that front before Joe accepted the job and walked out the door alone. Now I know there is probably infinite point/counterpoint on this, but I’m sure this would have been on Joe’s mind as he filed the divorce documents. What if Amanda and the boys had come with him? Would that have prevented the divorce? Couldn’t she have been happy in a foreign country? Couldn’t she have at least tried it out for a little while? I know that when my father got an opportunity to work in a 3rd world country for a while, my mother and we two kids went along. So why was Amanda so resistant? Did she think she could dictate the circumstances? Did she bluff her way into a corner: “You can go but the boys and I will stay here.” Or did they peacefully and optimistically believe that they could each keep their dreams while making a very long distance marriage work? I’d vote for “a little of the former” and a “lot of the latter” — Amanda is an optimist, and I believe that people like Joe who spend their lives helping those less fortunate must rely on a great deal of optimism as well.
As for Lee giving the documents to Amanda to read, well, when was the last time Lee won “an argument” aganst Amanda. I guess you could count WOTSTWizard when he orders her to go home — things had to get pretty desperate for him to win that one. Generally in the argument arena, I would say the score is Amanda 99, Lee 1. Why? Well, perhaps in part because Amanda really is stubborn 🙂 And maybe also because Lee is smitten and has been for a while, even if he is just now beginning to figure that out.
I don’t see being resistant to change as the same as being stubborn necessarily (although you can be both).
And as someone who has been married a while, if a married couple agrees on everything, they’re not living the the same house. Which Joe and Amanda weren’t…..! Anyway, the court isn’t going to grant you a divorce if there aren’t compelling reasons (I assume?), presumably, so Joe’s account of the divorce may have reflected a need to provide the reasons.
Lee is so sweet here – and incredibly tactful in how he handles Amanda’s moment of self-deceit. Watch and learn, husbands…. 🙂
There is no truer statement on this earth! ROFL!