So Lee and Amanda have left the agency for a talk.. they’re walking down a busy street..
Lee: I just don’t want to believe it, Amanda. Paul Barnes has always walked on water for me. He…he baptised me in this business, he gave me my code name, he saved my life. And now, I…I…I don’t know, I just think I’m goin’ nuts or something.
Wow.. there is so much in this dialogue here no? Sooo is this why Lee didn’t tell Billy about that perfect correlation? he suspects Paul, but isn’t sure?
The language used here is fascinating.. it has a god-like quality..he walked on water? he ‘baptised’?.. it’s like Paul is responsible for Lee’s scarecrow existence.. he named Lee, he baptised him.. he ‘saved Lee’s life’ ?? what does he mean by this? Paul was his saviour 10 years ago?? How? Was Lee’s life going off track before he made it to the oz network and got his code name?
I figure Lee had Paul on pedestal and now Paul is falling off – spectacularly.. Lee had an idealised view of Paul – but with everything that is happening, this is no longer possible.. oh my.. does this come back to that theme again- of people not really knowing the real person underneath the persona?? Did Lee see the ideal Paul rather than real Paul who is possibly fallible?? No one can live up to that.. Is that what this is about?? presenting an ideal version of yourself to the world, but by doing that never really being known?? I wonder if that’s what Lee has been trying to do up till now.. Hmm.. just my rambling ideas.. sorry! I digress..
Amanda: Lee, there’s gotta be a perfectly logical explanation.
[Yes there does! and with a baddie out there, you’d think they might wonder if he is behind it no?? or at least question it??]
Watch the extra in the blue t-shirt.. lol.. she seems to stop randomly and then start again so she stays in the shot! ha!!!
A bus drives past and uh oh..
Lee sees randomly appearing Dorothy – oh I know.. she can be ‘pop up Dorothy’!
Lee sees pop up Dorothy on the bus as it drives past and is completely distracted by it.
[had Lee idealised Dorothy too? hmm.. just wonderin..]
….What’s the matter?
Lee: Look, on that bus. It’s Dorothy!
Lee runs up to the bus and gets on to see pop up Dorothy in the flesh.. but she’s nowhere to be found (she’s the blonde in front -without the wig- who is finding herself a seat when Lee gets on) oh dear.. poor Lee!!! Did anyone recognise her as the women Lee had seen as pop up Dorothy? I can’t remember what I thought..
Poor Lee.. he looks so tortured..
Haunted I guess..
Anyone struggle to get on board (lol literally!) with this pop up Dorothy? I do!! I mean how did the baddie know Lee would be walking along that street at that moment to get pop up Dorothy on the bus like that??!!! and.. if Lee had asked one of those bus passengers if there was a brunette there someone would have told him that blonde there took her wig off – I mean who misses that on a bus??!!! hello?! ohh it’s a stretch I tell ya.. but I know.. I need to go with it.. Poor Lee.. someone saw the movie Gaslight and decided to mess with his perceptions and do a real number on him!
Lee moves toward the exit.. where Amanda has joined him..
[why does it look like the road is behind Amanda? I thought she was on the footpath?]
Lee: She was here, damn it.
Is it just me or does Lee even look a little teary here? awh!!!
…She was right here!
Amanda doesn’t say anything.. she remains silent.. an understanding presence…she looks scared for Lee here though..and a bit baffled.. how would you describe it? go for it!
Moving on.. we find the evil brown sedan is parked on the other side of the street watching Amanda again. LOL only he is magically parked in front of a park when they were on a busy downtown street with no park to be seen whahahaaa!!
Cue the evil music!
We see the baddie has a folder on his passenger seat.. How did the baddie get hold of this?? Certainly makes it seem like the baddie is inside the agency.. do they explain this? hmm I guess I’ll see!
Seems the baddie has been busy.. and got his photograph from Amanda he took yesterday developed and enlarged.. whoooooooo..
Baddie: Do svidaniya, Mrs King. (muahaha!) How does he know her name is ‘Mrs King’? ahh right.. the title of the show probably gave it away right?
I guess we do know it is Serdeych don’t we.. but at this point, the audience doesn’t know for sure.. and this folder could look bad for Paul… Anyway.. the baddie uses his texta to put a big X on Amanda’s photo.. why?! LOL!!! Amanda is the next target!! She’s gonna die!!! argh!!!!! don’t go to a commercial break now??!!!
Back from the break, and Lee and Amanda have ordered a drink at an outdoor cafe for a chat.. Does anyone NOT love this scene??!!!
Love how Amanda is now ordering herself a grown up drink.. not milk!
Lee: Amanda, how long have we known each other?
[Lee seems to be not looking directly at Amanda here as he asks that.. he is staring off in his own thoughts..]
Is this after lunch?? because Lee has a napkin on his leg.. and there is no cutlery on their table.. (and was it a ‘date’? whahahaha)
Amanda (super casual!) : Ohhhhh I don’t know – about 2 years or so.
Lee (matter of fact): 25 months…
[really? you know I would have guessed it would be longer! I was thinking three years.. but okay..cool.]
Amanda: And 2 weeks.
[whahahaa! Nice one Amanda.. play it cool and vague until you know where Lee is at! This is a wonderful clue to just how much he values his relationship with Amanda huh!!]
Lee actually manages a quiet smile when he hears Amanda add the two weeks
Lee quietly: yeah..
We hear Amanda give a quiet little chuckle..
Lee: In all that time,…
…have you ever known me to see things that aren’t there – people that aren’t there. [aha!!! there’s that ‘knowing’ again!]
[okay I’ll get this out of the way so I can just enjoy.. looks to me like this was filmed in two locations – behind Amanda doesn’t fit with the wide establishing shot we saw! She looks to be up high no? ]
Amanda: Well, yeah, now there was that time that you kept seeing that flasher on the Senate Park bike path…
Lee gives a look of annoyance..
Oh Amanda!! such a couple thing to do!! he’s annoyed at her response tee heee but he’s still with her and their bond is not affected
… I never saw him.
Lee even seems to eventually give a little smile..
Lee: You were gonna go out there with binoculars.
haaa.. too cute.. I love that they argue about this in the middle of Lee worrying he is losing his mind! ha!
Amanda: No, it was much safer that way.
Lee: No, I don’t mean flashers. I mean…
Amanda: I know, you mean…
(Amanda pauses a moment)
Lee: Yes, she was on that bus, Amanda. Not an illusion, not a fantasy….
Amanda silently nods here at what Lee is saying..
…It’s just not possible…
[Lovely touch by BB, the rubbing of his eyes here.. like he is trying to cope with what he saw- seeing Dorothy die.. but also.. seeing pop up Dorothy.. give them a good rub- you can’t believe what they are seeing.. and it’s very endearing and little boy like no? awh..]
…Dead is dead.
Actually.. I’ve seen Remembrance of things past… and You Only Die Twice – dead is not dead! 😉 which is a way the spy world can really mess with your head!
Amanda: And you’re sure she was killed?
[How can it be that in this moment, Lee is so sad.. and full of grief – but lookin so gosh darn good??!!!!!!]
…I held her body in my arms…
…I tried to breathe life back into her…
…until they finally had to pull me off….
[Yep.. you can’t get any more certain than that.. unless this is Shakespeare’s Romeo and Juliet! which… it isn’t! 😉 ]
…It was the first time…
(Lee pauses a moment.. ) Love the super close ups here in such a poignant moment!
…– the first time I’d ever seen somebody killed like that.
Amanda: Look, you were 24 years old. It wasn’t your fault.
…Now you gotta stop taking all the blame.
[Amanda the armchair shrink.. she understands Lee well! Guess this means Lee is aged 34 years here..you know, I would have thought he was older.. not sure why..]
Lee: But somebody has to. Somebody has to answer for her….
…A person shouldn’t just die and her only epitaph be a footnote in an old file.
Oh my gosh.. BB is amazing here.. Lee is so sad.. he sounds like he is about to cry. So full of grief. It’s very touching sorting through all these screen caps looking for the right ones to convey what Lee is going through.
[Interesting.. that because the agency didn’t address Dorothy’s death- Lee has carried it with him all these years. Because someone shouldn’t be just forgotten when they gave their life for a cause.. poor Lee! I think there is a little disgust at how the agency has dealt with Dorothy here too.. maybe Lee’s cover in Burn Out was based on this harsh reality.
This also makes sense of Lee’s earlier reaction to Paul’s cold-hearted response to Pamela’s death and knowing the risks.. not good enough. they deserve better. I agree with Lee! This is where Lee and Paul are dissimilar – Lee cares deeply.. and hasn’t lost that quality.. I’ve discussed Paul more in the next post though so I won’t say more about him yet.. I am thinking Lee feels guilty to have not avenged Dorothy’s death- but not sure he feels guilty for her death especially.. other than that he lives and she died I mean – I’ve discussed who I think he blames in the next post.. I’ve never really thought about all this before! ]
Amanda: I know “Agent Lost, Betrayed”
Lee: Yeah, that’s what it says.
Amanda: I know.
Lee: “Terminal betrayal.”…
…Wait – I never told you I was 24 then.
Lee: You read that file.
Amanda: I used Francine’s card. Oh c’mon…
[It seems to me like Amanda reaches out to touch Lee’s hand here.. but it’s out of view.. anyone else think so? I mean they don’t make anything of it.. but still..]
Lee gives Amanda a growling look! yeah.. growling!!
…I know I don’t have clearance but I was so worried about you….
Lee looks around here trying to get a grip on himself and this situation.. oh boy!!
…Look, you won’t talk to anybody and you just act like you’re some kind of a superman…
…and you’re not a superman, you’re just a man, but…
…you’re really a…
…– a pretty special man and… [I think Amanda hesitates here not out of embarrassment.. but because she isn’t sure how Lee is going to take this kinda talk…what do you think?]
Lee quietly looks at Amanda.. [hoooooo haaaaa]
Amanda isn’t sure how Lee’s taking this..
…– hey, I’m sorry.
Amanda says this and leans back. Seems to me she has removed her hand from his.
[Amanda is careful to not push Lee beyond where he is comfortable.. she’s a wise woman..]
Lee’s reaction is almost instantaneous..
He immediately reaches out to take her hand (Out of shot- argh!!) and replies emphatically: Lee: No, don’t be…
We see a lovely close up on Lee here
…It’s important to me that you care. (swoooooooonyyyyyy!)
[I do love this moment after tail of the dancing weasel and their fight about Lee not being able to get good and steamed.. it’s like what was unspoken in that episode finally is given words here]
Amanda gives Lee a warm smile, content that he has accepted her caring, and that he has reached out to her and taken the initiative here.. It is great that Lee is clear with Amanda here about where she stands with him- Well done Lee!!!!
Sooooo come on everyone – what’s that your seeing in Lee’s eyes here huh??!!!
Can we stop here at this point in the scene?? [The next line has Amanda ask about Paul and change the subject anyway.. so this is a good place to stop]
This moment reminds me of a few previous smk moments.. Remembrance of things past – where Amanda didn’t care that Lee didn’t care that she cared. but Lee did care awh!
And.. a couple of cafe scenes!
Legend of Das Geisterschloss – where Amanda took Lee’s hand to comfort him because he was worried about his friend Emily. The moment ended in sweet awkwardness because they were not completely comfortable with the strength of their connection ( IMHO).. and what was welcome or not welcome.
Burn Out – Another reconnect at a cafe!
The big ‘I really do understand’ scene – and Lee’s ‘you are amazing’ look on his face ?? wow… Here in Wizard he has another more quiet moment of appreciation me thinks..
Interesting to compare these two cafe scenes with where they are now. Though of course the burn out scene is slight different in context and not so straightforward a comparison-feel free to go for it! Any other previous smk moments come to mind?? Love to hear about it!!!
They’ve come a long way since Giesterschloss huh.. now Amanda is comfortable.. but gives Lee an opening to pull back without embarrassment – and he doesn’t take it up – he reaches out to Amanda and chooses to keep her close. Wow.. a ‘wonderful touch’ to a wonderful scene!! Was anyone else thinking of these scenes?
Lastly, Amanda’s telling Lee he is not a superman but he is a special man – resonates a lot with me and this theme I’ve been enjoying in this episode – about the self you present to the world.. and who you really are.. Amanda even says Lee ‘acts’ like he is superman. But he isn’t!
Lee and all his Astronaut covers or whatever don’t matter to Amanda – she prefers the real Lee and thinks he is special.
To be a superman is to be never known.. always slightly removed.. disconnected.. up on a pedestal – like how Lee has held Paul for years maybe.. here? Amanda tells Lee he is not on a pedestal for her (what a contrast to season one huh!!!).
At this point in the episode.. she knows of his dating behaviour (which is not admirable), she knows the true Lee – and still thinks he is pretty special. Then.. to top it all off? she gives Lee the chance to step back from all this, she doesn’t push him into a closeness or honesty he isn’t ready to go to – she lets him choose – and he chooses to be honest with her and to stay close.. even reaching for her hand again..
It is Amanda who averts her eyes..
while Lee looks at Amanda and admires what a pretty special woman he has as a friend.
IMHO at the end of this section of the scene here – Lee is taking the lead in their intimacy.. and it’s a wonderful reward for Amanda’s loyalty!!!
I know I haven’t mentioned love.. I think Lee is in love by now.. but he is not ready to recognise it or deal with it!!!! He is preoccupied with other happenings in his life now, for me- Lee has to deal with his dating history and old ways before he can begin to even think about a normal relationship -where he can really be known.. and before he can begin to deal with his feelings for Amanda. There will be more to say on this after this episode’s events!!!
This is one of the best scenes in the whole flippin show. Brilliant! Sorry I’ve gotta split it up!
Anyone have any thoughts they’d like to share about this scene? oh ho hum.. yes it is very boring….you probably won’t be very interested in this scene now will you? 😉 kidding!! tee heee!!! Go for it everyone!!!
Byeee for now!
Just a thought on Lee’s black books.
Some of the dates could have also been covers where he had to pretend to be ina relationship for the sake of the mission. The fact that he has things like notes or moons to remind him of his stories I find very telling.
I do agree with whoever said the dates might have just been dinners, etc and not gone past that.
Also we don’t know how old some of this is. He might have been more cavalier in the earlier years and shaped up even before the series started.
Because he definitely seems to be more respectful of women by the time the show starts — at least the eps I’ve seen.
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Lee said the whole mission with Dorothy happened 10 years ago. He “caught her” saying he was 24, and he said he never told her that. Now, after working together for 25 months (…and two weeks) don’t you think they would know each others’ ages?
I’m totally with you on that! The line should have been “I never told you the file said ‘agent lost, betrayed’.” sigh 😦 Script writers….
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I had a theory on this and I can’t remember which chapter of the blog I posted it on. When people say something happened a certain number of years ago, they’re usually rounding it off. (Other than how long Lee and Amanda have known each other). So when Lee says ten years ago, he probably means any time in 1975. On Rumors Of My Death, we see Lee’s passport and his birthdate is June 17, 1950, which means he was 24 from January 1 to June 16 of that year and then turned 25. So, if Dorothy’s death was before mid June, he could have been 24 and it was still ten years ago in 1975. In fact, that actually adds more credence to his surprise over Amanda knowing his age. By now they probably even know each other’s birthdays. If Amanda realizes he was 24 and not 25 at the time Dorothy died, when he tells her she died ten years ago, then she would definitely have had to seen the file, because she’d know the exact date it happened, which Lee never gave her.
Hello, I’ve been following for a little while. Love your blog, Iwsod, and all the thoughtful analysis by the members. I am not particularly insightful so I enjoy writers who can bring the story to life for me. But I am often good at details, and I didn’t see an answer to your comment about Amanda standing at the bus door looking as though the street was behind her. If you watch as Lee runs toward the bus from Amanda’s perspective, you can clearly see that there is an open parking lot on the other side of the sidewalk from where the bus stops, and that is the background we see from Lee’s perspective. So my little foray into joining the party.
Hiya Ruth! Welcome to JWWM!!!! So glad you could join us!! and – wonderful to hear we have another details fan on board!! 🙂 tee heee…. thanks for clearing up what was behind Amanda- me confused!!
Did you find the park that he baddie’s car was parked in front of while you were at it? 🙂
I hope you’ll go for it and feel free to join the party more often!
Hey Everyone – Got a welcome for Ruth???
Hi Ruth and welcome! I just followed and read and played catch up for a while before I tried to comment. But everyone here is very welcoming, friendly, and open to all insights and comments. So join in and have some fun. Looking forward to hearing more from you and your fine eye for details.
Welcome Ruthp221! So glad you have joined us here. As you can see we rely on everyone and their unique perspective offerings to complete our enjoyment of this wonderful story. Thank you for adding yours. As I always say, the more the merrier!
Welcome, Ruthp221! So glad to have another fan join in the discussion. It’s great that you caught that detail. I’m not great at details like that myself, so it’s great to have other fans that do. i learn so much!
Hi Ruth, glad you could join in the fun! The more the merrier 🙂
In an earlier post, I mentioned that Lee is cautiously, carefully moving their relationship forward, while Amanda is carefully pondering what is happening. She’s beginning to realize that something is shifting
Here she takes a bold step, testing the waters – “but you’re really a special man.” She acknowledges that she thinks Lee is special. His response is a confirmation here. If she’s not swooning now, she soon will be. 🙂
Yes, I do believe she touched his hand, and I’m excited that he reached for hers right back. There is something so definitely unspoken in these little hand-holding moments. Something just waiting to blossom with a bit more watering.
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Oh, and let me just say for the record – this scene is also reminiscent to the SOS scene outside the casino. The same awkward, shy Lee makes a brief appearance here – the same one from ROTP and BO. The cute, little boy in the very handsome adult Lee – definitely swoony. 🙂
LOL! Debilyn you do love that moment of Lee’s don’t you 😉
I am surprised it’s not your avatar! Would you like me to do one up for you? Didn’t I do a happy birthday to you one year with that pic? I remember giggling away on that one.. loved it..
[or anyone else for that matter like me to do them an Avatar? email me if you like..]
You did do the birthday pic for me, and I still enjoy it! 🙂 I would greatly appreciate it if you would do an avatar of that moment for me. Please and thank you!
Oh boy, back to Oz again with the Dorothy sighting…Lee is really messed up in the head here or else he surely would have figured out by process of elimination that the blond chick was “Dorothy” and she had removed her wig and camo jacket. One quick look in her purse or under her seat or something would have revealed it. But alas, our poor Lee is in an emotional turmoil. “His” women are being murdered, he’s having hallucinations, and he is afraid that a man he held up as a “God” is the one doing it. That sucks.
I really think Lee is at the end of his emotional rope here. His whole world is upside down. Going along with the idea that OTL came first, his personal life is on shaky ground with the whole “new” type of girlfriend, a new foray into a non-work based friendship with Amanda, and now all this stuff with the murders and suspecting Paul. How whole world is crashing down around him and he is pretty desperate. He wants things to be back to “normal” and have no more murders. He wants no more hallucinations. He wants to go back to just wanting more out of life and being able to explore it without feeling like he’s going crazy.
Desperate people do desperate things. I think Lee is acting out of desperation here with Amanda. I don’t think he would have done this with anyone else in this way. He may have talked to Billy eventually, I think he would have had to, but Amanda is the logical choice for about 20 reasons I won’t list because we all know them.
I do think Lee is showing progress with this chat with Amanda, but I also think there is some desperation here that is forcing him to reveal this much to Amanda – professionally and personally. He is grasping, a little bit, I think. Perhaps he is thinking that if he does things differently with Amanda, if he opens up and shares with her on a “real” basis and treats her differently, then she won’t be lumped in the same category with all the other women and will be safe? I realize that’s a stretch, but Lee is acting so differently here that something is going on with him.
Lee is reaching out to the only person he knows he can reach out to and not be judged. He knows he is safe talking to Amanda, and he needs someone to talk to, so here goes. He must feel as if a bit of a weight is taken off his shoulders at her car – no wonder he says what he says to her. Iwsod, your pics are all soo swooooony here! Love them!
Lee’s annoyance at Amanda when he realizes she read the Oz file despite lacking clearance is cute. Take that, you rulebreaker, you!! Actually, I think he is annoyed because she “spied” on him more, after the whole Weasel thing, and can’t even chalk it up to Harry or Zulu Blue! I don’t think he is annoyed that she broke the rules.
Oh, yeah, Amanda is a bit embarrassed to admit to Lee that he is a special man. But she doesn’t know yet that he thinks she is a special woman, does she? Awww, they’re even. I like even. I do think she doesn’t know how Lee is going to take it, because they are just friends, work partners, and haven’t even dated yet 😉 She is telling him that she really likes him, warts and all, and that he is a special man. I LOOOVE how he looks at her in that frame right after she tells him that. Who doesn’t??
And there is definite touching that we can’t see off-screen. I’d bet my kids that her hand is on his, she pulls it away after her admission, and then Lee grabs it back before he tells her it matters to him that she cares. Why oh why were those touches off-screen! Damn editor!!!!! Or whoever is responsible for that!!!
Lee is so desperate and at the end of his rope that he is finally at a point where he can admit to Amanda that she is important to him and the fact that she cares is important to him. It’s about time he’s realized it fully in his conscious brain and can tell her that. Yep, he’s desperate all right. And I think at this point, Leslie is out the door in Lee’s mind, if she hasn’t been kicked out already. Lee could not share anything like this with Leslie, and it feels pretty darn good right now at that table with Amanda, working through his emotional upheaval with Amanda. He is acting sincerely grateful and fully truthful with her. I think they both understand that.
Hmmm, what do I see in Lee’s eyes here? Gratefulness, sincerity, and honesty – just said those. But I also see sadness and regret. His smile only makes it just high enough to form that right-cheek dimple. I think the sadness and regret stem from him realizing he is now 34, and that his life isn’t perhaps what he wants it to be anymore – or what he thought it would be. This episode has forced him to think back to his beginning, which has probably made him think about what 24 year old Lee would have expected 34 year old Lee’s life to be. I’m thinking 34 YO Lee is wishing that things were a little different. I’m not sure if I see love yet, at least not more than love for a friend who has been there for him, who would have loaned him a sock if he needed it, but I do think for the first time that Lee is looking at Amanda with eyes that say, I wish I could be a bit more normal, like you. I wish I could taste “normal”, have a bit of “normal” instead of hallucinations, past experiences with friends being shot to death right in front of you, and questioning the one man he put on a pedestal at the beginning of his career. “Normal” is seeming pretty real to Lee right at this moment, and I think that is what this desperate man is starting to want.
Lucky for him, it is sitting right across from him at the table. 🙂
Now I will go read everyone else’s comments and see what everyone else has to say!
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BJo, I really appreciated your view of this scene. Counting Lee’s desperation and how it would affect the way he shares with Amanda here. And also I really like how you brought up 24 year old Lee’s view of how his life would be in 10 years, as opposed to how it really is. I can see that sadness and I can see how “normal” would begin to be very appealing if not a pipe dream that young Lee had that he is wondering if he might need to mourn as well. That makes me think of the transition that Lee is beginning to go through of denying feelings for a normal woman because she is normal, to the fear that he may not be worthy. However I do see love there as well, and I think when the dust settles from this storm in Lee’s life, he will discover that the feelings that exist in his heart for Amanda are romantic and then some.
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Reading made me think of something else. I think this is another piece of data that I think falls in the OTL before Wizard camp. And I’ve not made my mind up, I’m just noticing bits here and there. I think it’s hard because we’ve already walked through OTL. It might be easier to find data supporting Wizard first if that was how we had walked through it.
Anyway, back to my reason for commenting. I don’t really think Leslie is all that normal. At least not compared to Amanda. The only “normal” thing about her, and the only thing Amanda can legitimately comment on is her appearance. So in that respect, she is “normal.” However, she works for the UN, travels a lot between the US, Geneva, and The Hague (I think that’s what she said she did.) I think it is safe to assume she has no children. So, no house with the picket fence, kids, PTA, or scouts – all the things that make Amanda normal. Plus she probably earns a good salary, and if she owns a car, I doubt it’s a fake wood-sided station wagon.
My point is that Leslie really isn’t “normal”, but Amanda is. So the reason I put this data point in the OTL before Wizard column is that it is a natural progression for Lee in my opinion. After the experience of this gut-wrenching, emotionally upheaving episode, I’m not sure that I see Lee turning to date Leslie. But we’ll see, won’t we!! I’m looking forward to when we are done walking through this episode and can discuss all aspects that we haven’t seen yet!
I agree that there are definite off-screen touches, and as much as I’d liked to have seen them, I love the super closeups we are getting on their faces. We see every little nuance, every little smile, every single detail of how they are feeling. BB and KJ are brilliant actors and this scene is so moving because of their expressions.
I think Paul is really trying to portray the superman image. To me, that’s what his “The Wizard hasn’t lost all his magic” is all about. He doesn’t want help from anyone, and he wants not only to catch Serdeych, but to pull it off in an impressive and mysterious way.
This certainly is one of the best scenes! That trust, closeness, the openness with each other is so special . . . it’s special as a bond between friends, even if they had never moved into a romantic relationship. It’s especially poignant to me considering all that Lee has to go through in this episode — the guilt, the invasion of his privacy, the alienation of a man he once idolized. The near-fight between Lee and Paul is one of the saddest moments in the episode, because those two should be on the same side, working toward the same goal, and something has come between them.
I don’t get why Amanda saying Lee was “only 24 years old” when Dorothy died should be such a tipoff . . . she was standing right there when Paul said “It’s been 10 years”, and I’m certain she knows how old Lee is now . . . simple math. But I like that she doesn’t keep it a secret from him that she read the file.
So it seems Serdeych knows alot about the women in Lee’s past, but is needing to do some detective work to find out about Lee’s present . . . I think we could safely say that whoever Serdeych is, it is someone from Lee’s past — at least from before Lee’s association with Amanda. You have to give the guy good marks on his detective/spy ability: he has managed to discover that Amanda is VERY important to Lee, and that makes her a logical target.
Love how in Spiderweb, Lee has no doubts that Amanda is innocent. He really knows her. Though Paul walks on water, etc, Lee has doubts about him. He doesn’t trust Paul, he is not sure.
Is anyone else special? Dorothy is special, Amanda is special, and Lee is special. We’ll have to see if anyone else get’s called special from here on out. Has anyone else been called special.
Lee would have fallen apart had he not had Amanda at this time. It is great that he is able to open up and talk to her. I agree what everyone has said, this scene is so pivotal in their relationship. Can’t wait for part 2 of this scene!
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Very true observation there about spiderweb LAAL! I guess Lee’s relationship/history with Paul is very different.. and part of what made Amanda so trustworthy was her plain normalness – interesting given Lee’s views on ‘Normal’ and the way his views seem to change on that over wizard and OTL.
Yeah we’ll have to keep an ear out for ‘special’ – interesting to hear the word in both wizard and in OTL. gah.. I keep coming back to this order thing.. but I like to think Amanda tells Lee he is special in Wizard.. and in OTL, Lee then utilises the same word to describe Amanda 🙂 it’s like Lee has been pondering on this wonderful, pivotal moment here 🙂
Hmm I will publish the second part (post 8) tonight. I have to leave very early in the morning tomorrow.. so will publish it a little earlier tonight (my time) sooo should publish in about 8 hours time 🙂
This has been Wizard of Oz day. Today on Yahoo there was a video about what some thought was the symbolism behind the story. It was all connected to the economic situation at the time and how farmers were affected and the issue with the gold standard. I had heard about all of that before it just seemed odd that it was brought up today.
Also, there is a new musical version of The Wizard of Oz that will begin playing at the Detroit Opera House tomorrow. I had seen advertisements but didn’t really focus on it. The old songs are included plus some new ones by Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice. If I had been paying attention I would have tried to get tickets.
Oh my gosh! I can’t believe you just mentioned Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice!!! See upcoming post 8 for why that’s such a coincidence!!! 🙂
One more comment…
Why does Lee react initially with irritation and anger when he learns that Amanda snooped and read that file? That seems like old Scarecrow behavior. Is it because he is concerned about how she is viewing him, due to the black books and the seeing Dorothy, or is he reaction out of Agency protocol. It is that you spied on me stuff from Weasel. But he softens when she tells him why she did it. She was so worried about him, she says. She is honest with him, she tells him what he isn’t but then blesses him by telling him who he is, a very special man. Does Lee recognize that term, “special?” But it is her care for him that melts him here and he reaches out to her and affirms her and how much he needs her care. This transcends romance. Romance can exist with or without this kind of communication and care. But love cannot. That part of their conversation always sticks out to me.
Oh and the age thing…can 10 years be a rounded number? Oh, I’ll take that to Ned’s if anyone wants to talk about it.
Beautiful!! gosh it’s been delightful to read all the comments on this wonderful scene!
I think Lee felt exposed when he realised what Amanda had done. His immediate reaction was hostility.. but he very quickly got a handle on it.. calmed his emotions down and realised there is no need for hostility here – he is safe with Amanda 🙂
At least, that’s my take on it..
OMGoodness, 36 comments. I am so late to the party!!!
Before I read any comments I want to add a quick comment (maybe someone already wrote this). I was just responding to Learjets comment on post 3 about Paul’s comment that the Wizard hadn’t lost all his magic. She had pointed out that in the story the Wizard of Oz” the Wizard actually doesn’t have any magic. In my comment I was remembering that the Wizard was really all smoke and mirrors and each of the characters had sought him out so that he could magically give them something they thought they were lacking. In the end the Wizard only had to affirm that what they were looking for they each already had within them and had indeed used those things already on their journey to him.
This reminds me of what is happening here with Lee. Iwsod talks about Lee having Paul on a pedestal, and I do think he does. Maybe he was looking to the “Magic” that Paul was referring to, maybe he was trying to copy it. Here Amanda is reminding Lee that he isn’t a super hero, he isn’t magical. But he is special, just because he is, he has it inside of him.
No I will read comments and have fun.
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The “25 months” “and 2 weeks” bit is really telling – for both of them the day they met is clearly significant. I bet they also both remember the exact day and time they met. 😀
I love the way Amanda is vague and then Lee takes the first step and then Amanda punctuates it with weeks and Lee responds with that wonderful “yeah.” It really is a remarkable exchange. I can’t wait to play with it in my stories.;)
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Me either ! 🙂
It’s almost like Amanda’s trying to be cool like who’s counting? “2 years.” She says. But then Lee counters with “25 months” which affirms to Amanda that Lee IS counting too, so she adds “and two weeks”. It’s such a sweet moment that shows each of them that the day they met and the length of time since that day is important to each other.
awhhhhhh LeeLovesAmanda – I love reading your thoughts on wizard (and lately on ALLA!) thanks for sharing your thoughts!!
Thank you! Sorry I’m posting so much. With the COVID stuff, I am not doing much besides working from home and watching S&MK. This site has been a breath of fresh air for me!
Very late to the party and I am enjoying all the comments.
All I can say is that D.C. is very lovely for it being December (If the train station was just before Halloween, 25 months and 2 weeks would put them roughly in late November to mid December). But I quibble and I can forgive the time warp for such an amazing scene.
Cindy’s back!!! hooray!!! back just in time for some good stuff Cindy! 😉
time warp? Lol.. yeah.. I find it pays not to focus on the seasons or dates with any great detail – I think I risk my head exploding if I do!
Join in the party is still going!! 🙂
I’m rather interested in the messianic language Lee used to describe Paul’s role in his life up to now (walking on water, saving him, baptising etc. etc.) – as Iwsod says, no human being could live up to that! But what really interests me is that Lee seems to think that he (Lee) should be a “saviour” of people himself. It have come up before that he seems to take responsibility for other people and protect them, but here he talks about Dorothy as if he tried to bring her back (trying to breathe life back into her), and that Amanda says that he has “gotta stop taking all the blame” (v New Testament of the Bible). He really feels burdened.
I wonder why they have mixed this all in with the Wizard and Oz stuff?? This episode is chock-full of metaphors
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I agree, it is very interesting. Maybe one of the most freeing thing is when we take ourselves and others off of pedestals. Maybe some of that is happening here. And it is done in a supportive atmosphere (because of Amanda). Actually this is an interesting thought; Amanda has a kind of saving role here. But hers is born out of love, I think, not out of duty, or guilt, or fear.
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This is just such an awesome scene and it’s one that I end up playing over and over because there is just so much goodness. Lee knowing that they’ve known each other for 25 months just blows me away. Half the time my own father can’t even remember my birthday, much less how old I am. That one statement about Lee seeing the flasher also is so telling about how much time they are spending to together and they are obviously not discussing shop talk. Does Lee go bike riding? Is Amanda along for the ride? Are they out walking? Just how often has he seen this flasher and brought it up that Amanda was going to get some binoculars to check it out?
I know we’ve talked about this emotional wall that Lee has constructed and how Amanda is breaking down this wall, but I tend to see it as several walls, kind of like a set of firewalls on a computer. Lee seems to have constructed a new layer each time he has been emotionally damaged, hurt or suffered a great loss. And each time Amanda is able to break through it’s like going back in time. The first layer was the death of his partner. We see that in TFT and Amanda immediately gets something out of him without him fully realizing it, but it still takes a while before he eventually sees her as and recognizes the partnership. First firewall down.
The second is the whole distasteful Eva situation and Lee’s not understanding what a real relationship is all about and not being able to move on from what he thought was real. Amanda, again, is there for him to aid and counsel when he asks questions and when he has that breakthrough and is able to finally say it’s over. Firewall number two.
Then there’s the whole ‘what is a real friend?’ issue. Lee refers to a lot of people as friends–co-workers, dates, etc. We don’t see anyone outside of the Agency however. Being shuttled around from military base to military base had to wreak havoc on trying to establish and maintain friendships so Lee has struggled with not only not having them, but also defining what a real friend is. So all of his friendships seem to be only on the surface. Enter Amanda. She starts in the friend zone, moves into the good friend zone and eventually shifts into the very good friend category. Things that happen to her, become very personal to him. Firewall number three.
Now we go further back in time to Lee’s early career and he has a devastating death to deal with. He obviously had no one helping him to deal with it and internalized everything he was feeling. I wonder if he even flashed back to having to deal with the death of his own parents. We do see what he meant by this is the first time he saw someone die this way. This issue has been locked away a long time, but Lee has been learning as these firewalls have been dropping that Amanda is a constant and steady presence that keeps him anchored. So now firewall number four is down. Each time a firewall drops it allows Lee to be able to open up more to Amanda. I do think there is at least one more firewall, but not until S4, so I’ll wait to discuss it.
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I love your idea of multiple firewalls – and yes as I read what you wrote, I agree that the final wall goes down at the in early season 4.
I also absolutely love the 25 months details – my husband has to put our wedding anniversary in his phone to remind him otherwise he wouldn’t remember – so I agree this is hugely significant. And very very cute.
Totally agree. Even though I think he fell in love with Amanda before that I always thought the final wall didn’t come down until stemwinder. Multiple firewalls is a great way to put it.
I think it’s Unfinished Business where the final wall comes down (but I can see why you say stemwinder)
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Hi guys – Pleeeeease no talk of what happens in season 4 here on JWWM Okay?
You think there is more growth to come.. that’s cool.. but please lets not get into when you or how you think that might happen. Let’s stick with the story.
But.. you are free to discuss over at Nedlindger’s as much as you like – I won’t read it.. but others will I’m sure.
I’ll be back later to take in these comments more fully and respond.. Thanks!
Sorry, Iwsod, You’re absolutely right.
sorry too. I get ahead of myself sometimes.
Thank you! feel free to go for it at Neds 🙂
All good- thanks!
I assume ‘the flasher’ incident occurred while they were doing a surveillance or stake out. It would be nice to think that it was something that happened while they were spending purely personal time together (the personal time would be a nice thought I mean, not the flasher…ick!). I think there is a fanfic somewhere that deals with the “flasher” incident.
Jestress wrote one, I think. I believe it is mentioned in the fanfic section at Ned’s
Yep, Jestress did! 🙂
It’s the product of a mind that was cooped up in airplanes and cars for hours on end but still had a notebook for scribbling in. 😀
Love the firewall idea, Valarie!
Oh boy!!! This is brilliance and beauty and so clearly described. Yes! Firewalls down. I agree and can see each one. And I know exactly what you are describing with that last one. That is exactly as I view the process as well. Thanks you Valerie!
Love this, Valerie!
Oh Valerie! I love the idea of firewalls and how you described how they were coming down. Great analogy!
I’m not sure how much sense this will make, but here goes:
Yep–I’ve also always thought of this scene as one of the most important for their relationship. Amanda lets him know that she sees and appreciates the real him, and that its okay for him to have his space and to be who he needs to be. (Reminds me of the greeting in Avatar – “I see you” where to see is to “open the mind and heart to the present”… http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/I_See_You – I think to truly accept all that someone is.) Lee accepts this and lets her know that he appreciates her care for him as well as–I think–that he appreciates her. For being her. The second appreciation is mostly unspoken, but there in his look.
I think that Lee is in love, but doesn’t know it/hasn’t recognised it. I don’t think he’s really had anything deep to compare it to in his experience and he’s avoided feelings for a long time. He might’ve felt romantic love for Dorothy, maybe, but I think it was probably brotherly love, or friendly love, and with the stress of the Oz network op making emotions stronger. I think that Eva involved a lot of lust, masquerading in his brain as love, and ending in a world of hurt. And, not only is he lacking in comparisons and dealing with the fact that he’s surpressed/ignored feelings for so long, I think that he’s dealing with some big issues right now with so many women he knew dying/memories of Dorothy/someone from Oz being a killer/his four black books and dating history such that he’s not allowing himself to probe or question the emotions that are roiling in him. He’s getting closer to the needed introspection all the time, and this conversation with Amanda was another big key to doing that.
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Oh, and I think it’s easier for Lee to find excuses not to probe/question himself about his emotions than it is for him to face up to the introspection. If it weren’t all the big issues he’s dealing with right now, he’d find some other way to avoid it–he hasn’t been ready to face up to it… But, like I said, he’s getting closer.
I agree with this too. I wonder if that is part of what is behind his behavior in this episode, not just here with Amanda, but with Dorothy and Paul too.
Just wanted to say.. KC that’s a beautiful comment you’ve made right there!!! 🙂
Like what you say here KC, especially about Lee’s relationships with Dorothy and Eva.
That made perfect sense, KC. Yes, I do think Lee is in love with Amanda as well. I don’t think he has the time to figure it out yet, for all the reason’s you mentioned. I also think that there is a new reason growing as well that being his sense of unworthiness and how he views Amanda (maybe it was there all the time, but was very buried). I do think the strength of this may just be taking a center position, especially in light of those 4 black books, and his past and the facts of this present situation. Is he a safe person, can he have a real relationship?
Yes, Morley, I totally agree with you… I think that the feeling of unworthiness also comes into play more (or differently?) later, after he’s realised/understood what it is he’s feeling and he’s at the point of figuring out what to do with the feelings –> the next step, so to speak –> I think it’s then that he has a battle with himself of am I good enough for her and do I want to risk losing the friendship…???…
He’s wondering about his unworthiness in the back of his mind now, but I don’t think that topic is totally specific to Amanda, at this point… I think after he has his realisation then it really becomes a question for him of is he good enough for her given how wonderful she is–he doesn’t recognise/acknowledge his own growth.
But that’s in the future and I’ll stop now so that there’s no temptation to bring up future occurrences… (See, iwsod, I can behave myself sometimes! Muah hah hah.)
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Well done KC 😉 lol.. I tend to address jumping ahead promptly – not because it is major naughty or something.. but because when one person jumps ahead, it tends to lead to a flow on effect – where more people jump ahead in response.. just so you know 😉
Anyone can feel free to give friendly encouragement to someone to hang in there and not jump ahead – Even feel free to point it out to me – I’ve had a few times where I’ve said stuff in posts and then before publishing I’ve read it and thought – doh!! how did that get in there?! 😉 so it is only a matter of time before I slip up..
Love what you’ve said here about Lee and his unworthiness. I’m thinking it doesn’t become an issue just yet. When? well we shall see! 🙂
O,h and swoon thud!!!!
I always thought this was one of the very most key moments in Lee and Amanda’s relationship. While there have been many times in the past he let Amanda get closer to him than he intended and was vulnerable around her, this is the first time he knowingly and intentionally let her get close and chose to be vulnerable with her. I think it has probably been years since he’s done that with anyone. Even back when he was with Eva I got the impression he never really opened up to her about his feelings cause while she obviously knew she affected him I got the impression she didn’t really know how much he did love her and that he wanted to marry her or she wouldn’t have been so nonchalant about waltzing in and announcing her engagement to someone else. Yes I think she is evil but if she really knew just how deeply Lee felt about her I think she would have played it up a little more like making it seem like she loved Lee too and that it was a really hard choice. So even with her I don’t think Lee ever completely opened up or let himself be vulnerable. Here with Amanda he is as about as vulnerable as a person can be and even when he found out she was pretty much spying on him by reading his files(something that would have angered him greatly a year ago) now though annoyed he is mostly just grateful that she cares. Yes I think he is in love at this point, but that’s not what he’s figuring out yet. What he’s figuring out is how much he needs Amanda. In a word the scene is beautiful.
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Misty I think you’ve hit the nail on the head when you say that “this is the first time he knowingly and intentionally let her get close and chose to be vulnerable with her” – it’s that it’s intentional that really marks this scene.
Oh I agree – I found the fact Lee chose to talk to Amanda HUGE!! [well as you can see from my post] and that he chose to share such an intimate moment and not hold back? wow.. super super swoony.. love what you’ve written here Misty – great to have you back!
Eva yeah.. she was a doozie huh.. I think with Eva, she was an idealised person Lee never really knew.. but seems Lee told her he was a spy – now that is interesting huh.. given what we learn in Wizard about Lee and all his covers. He must have really fallen for the Eva that he thought she was 😦
Hooray.. Lee has chosen a wonderful woman here to be open and honest with – well done Lee- good Choice buddy!! 🙂
Yeah, I think Lee told Eva he was a spy because he was leading up to telling her he loved her and asking her to marry him. Dodged a bullet if you asked me. I totally agree he just idealized her and didn’t really know her. He loved the person she was pretending to be, and that was so not who she really was. I think he genuinely did care for Dorothy and maybe was starting to love her. He obviously thought she was special but I’ve never really been able to decide if he really loved her or if it was how he lost her that affected him so deeply. I think Amanda is probably the first woman he ever loved whole heartedly, and though I think Amanda loved Joe once I always got the impression she loved Joe the way a girl loves and she loves Lee the way a woman loves which is so much stronger. I just always thought their relationship was really something unique and special.
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Misty I loved all this!! 🙂
ROFL!!!! hey Misty was that pun intended?? Lee ‘dodged a bullet’?! whahahhhaaaa!! he sure did!!! in the back!!! whahahahaaa!!!! 🙂
Eva never loved Lee – she kept both Lee and Angelo on the hook waiting for her orders: which one to reel in.. the orders were to reel in Angelo.. Then, a few years later.. the orders were for her to rehook Lee and reel him in.. Evil woman!! so I really don’t see her as showing Lee any real love at all!
So I like to see Lee here in this scene as experiencing what it is to be truly loved by another – a novel experience for Lee. To be known and loved.
Amanda shows real love towards Lee here -and I think for him it is a revelation 🙂
[and no I don’t see Amanda as madly in love with Lee yet.. but she still shows lots of genuine love toward him! 🙂 ]
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Like the way you describe what Eva did – “reeling in” one or the other as ordered. I think this is probably the best description I have read of Eva’s actions and intentions.
I think both Lee and Amanda love each other at this point but Lee isn’t ready to acknowledge it to himself, and Amanda isn’t willing to acknowledge it to herself. I still think Amanda consciously acknowledged to herself that she could lose her heart to Lee in Burn Out and she has been suppressing that urge ever since, and I still think she is the one to realise first that she has fallen in love, but we’re not there yet so I shall not discuss further.
(I see Iwsod you’ve already been cracking the whip in this post about jumping ahead, and for once it wasn’t me who transgressed! 😉 )
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Hear hear! This is such an enormously pivotal moment and show such depth of feeling. I read this quote by an author, David Levithan, the other day and thought how apt it was for these two. It feels to me it’s where they are on the brink of: “What is it about the moment you fall in love? How can such a small measure of time contain such enormity? I suddenly realize why people believe in déjà vu, why people believe they’ve lived past lives, because there is no way the years I’ve spent on this earth could possibly encapsulate what I’m feeling. The moment you fall in love feels like it has centuries behind it, generations—all of them rearranging themselves so that this precise, remarkable intersection could happen. In you heart, in your bones, no matter how silly you know it is, you feel that everything has been leading to this, all the secret arrows were pointing here, the universe and time itself crafted this long ago, and you are just now realizing it, you are now just arriving at the place you were always meant to be.”
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Jule that is goooooorgeous!!!! thanks for sharing that quote so true!!!
I said in the last post that Lee was off-kilter, he seemed to have lost his objectivity and was zeroing in on Paul as being Serdeych, but maybe one of the reasons why he is so off-kilter is that he was feeling conflicted about what the evidence seemed to be showing (the correlation) and his admiration for Paul.
All this on top of his emotional turmoil around Dorothy’s reappearance, Leslie (if she is still in the picture but even if she isn’t the break-up will still be fresh in his mind), and his increasing awareness of his feelings for Amanda – it’s no wonder he “needed to talk”. And although he seems to be at a point where he’s not ready to admit his feelings for Amanda, what he will admit to himself is that she is his best friend and confidant, and the only person he feels will understand his dilemma and help him through it.
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Very true kiwismh!
I’ll just differ in that I am not factoring Leslie in here at all.. if wizard is before OTL, then she isn’t yet on the scene..
Leaving Leslie out, there’s still a ton of stuff going on for Lee – as you’ve put so well! ‘conflicted’ is a great word!!
The Lee in this post is definitely not pre-OTL Lee. The way Lee is in this episode so far makes me 100% certain this is post-OTL.
So for me Leslie has either been given the heave-ho or is about to be given the heave-ho. All joking aside, in a way it would have been really good to see how Lee did break it off with Leslie – whenever it happened. Such a scene and the way he handles it would inform us significantly as to how much progress Lee has made and how (or if) his growing closeness to Amanda has an impact on the situation.
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Psstt, kiwismh, did you read my comment a few posts ago about the deleted scene? I kind of laid my thoughts about this topic out there, if you wanted to read it. But I don’t want to detract from this wonderful scene here. (Any body ever seen Electric Company…or was it from Sesame Street? Where the muppet says, “Pst… hey mister, want to buy a letter e.” I feel like that muppet)
Yes Morley, I did read your comments about this and thought they were really good. Makes a lot of sense if we assume that the scene with Leslie happened even though it wasn’t filmed.
I also still like to think he broke it off quickly after OTL (i.e. the Leslie scene in Wizard didn’t occur), realising it just wasn’t going to work because he just didn’t have the right feelings for her and because of long-distance relationship aspect of it. I can’t see Lee (or Leslie for that matter) wanting to persist with a relationship that’s so awkward and going nowhere, especially when they are living a distance away from each other most of the time.
The scene we’re commenting on here is really pivotal but I also see the final scene in OTL as absolutely pivotal. In that final scene we suddenly see the real Lee – relaxed and at ease with himself in a way we haven’t seen before. There’s no flashy clothes or perfect hairstyle or smooth talk, just Lee, relaxed but a little awkward, hoping his best friend will want to have dinner with him. It was like he had made peace with something inside himself.
We see that same Lee here in a way, taking those next tentative steps to open himself up further to Amanda. He wouldn’t admit to love yet, but I think he knows there’s something special going on between him and Amanda.
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I like your observation about Lee being relaxed and a little awkward. You are right, there is something very new then and here as he opens up to Amanda. I agree, he does know that something special is going on between them. I think Amanda may be a bit shocked by it, but right now, nothing Lee is doing seems usual to her. Actually it is kind of fun watching her trying to figure him out right about now in the series, isn’t it?
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Interesting ideas Kiwismh and Morley! Of course, I see it slightly differently as we all differ slightly on the order of wizard/Otl and whether the dinner at the end of OTL was a date or not.. keeps things interesting!
Love love love this kiwismh! Even if we do differ on ep order or date definition! 🙂
And.. your description sums up beautifully one reason why I like OTL after Wizard. After everything that goes on in Wizard and OTL – Lee in the tag of OTL has navigated his way through..he is the real Lee.. has done away with the persona, the covers.. and yes he has more peace inside himself – I can’t put it any better!!
I’m not trying to talk anyone into wizard then OTL..
has anyone got any suggestions or ideas for how we can write the post on exploring the order of wizard/otl? I’m not sure I’ve gotten my head around how best to do it..
I’m thinking there is no right or wrong answer for the episode order – and people will have probably equally valid reasons for the order they go with [thought I think walking through OTL first has made it easier to see this ep as first.. but there’s no way around that..]
– it’s going to come down to preference.. preference about how we prefer to see the story being told and what’s happening for the characters. So maybe in the end.. we should just share the order we like and why we like it??
Open to ideas on the most constructive way to explore this.. bye for now!
I’d suggest having maybe 2 to 4 people (a couple with each viewpoint). Allow each to have a section of the post to “state their case” and then at the end of all four people’s “cases”, allow each a section to discuss what they think of the others’ cases.
Thanks for the suggestion Learjet!
What does everyone else think? Anyone interested in sharing their viewpoint? or no good?
I think the final part of your suggestion- allowing each a section to discuss what they think of other’s cases would happen in the comments section anyway though.
At this point, I’m still looking at both options – but it’s probably obvious that I am leaning toward Wizard first..
I think that I am slowly forming an opinion about which of these episodes is first, but it may all change when we walk through ALLA, as that is another one I am puzzled about the order . . .
However, my notes I have been taking as we go through Wizard are turning into a pretty impartial (at least I think so) summing up of the different points that could go in one direction or the other.
I would be glad to contribute to a post on the episode order, either by actually contributing to the post without offering an opinion (and then we could all go to town with opinions in the comments) or by making my notes available to anyone who wants them while writing the post.
Happy Camper – that would be brilliant!!! Can we publish your notes and then we can just discuss?
I was thinking I could do a very brief summary of Lee/Amanda moments in Wizard and OTL in the opposite order we have walked through – so people can have a glimpse of how the show aired originally – this could work if I do that and add your notes Happy Camper (making it very clear which part of the post is your handywork of course Happy Camper!) -what do you think?
That sounds well balanced and impartial. And then we can go to town in the comments section! ;D
Sounds great. When do you think you would like to get the notes?
I imagine you won’t be able to finish your notes until we have finished walking through wizard.. is that right?
I think there are two or three more posts to go (I haven’t finished watching the episode much less writing it! lol!) soooo if I publish a post every two days – I’d say I’d be looking to do the post in about 4 or 6 days.?
Feel free to email me about it if you like HappyCamper.. but if this doesn’t work for you – I don’t want to put pressure on you and we can work something else out 🙂
We could even hold off till ALLA is finished.. but I wonder if that would do people’s heads in?! haaaa
I can start putting together the OTL revisit now – and add your notes to it..?
Hmm, a constructive way to explore the OTL/Wizard or Wizard/OTL episode order….
I like Learjet’s suggestion of a post with a small number of people “stating” their case for their preferred order. Anyone else with reasons for their preferred order could write it up in a comment to share that way. Iwsod, are you looking to make a decision on this? Meaning, are you going to have a JWWM S3 order? Or are you open to leaving it open-ended? I’m thinking the latter, but was if it’s the former, than that makes a difference. If you want a decision, then I would suggest adding a poll after the order is explored.
A crazy idea would be for you to blog OTL again, immediately after we’re done with Wizard. We can’t go back and unblog OTL, but if we re-visit it next with Wizard fresh in our eyes, and you reblog OTL again with Wizard behind us, it is the closest we can get to having blogged it that way in the first place. I wonder how different your blog posts for OTL would be if they had come after Wizard.
It’s just a thought. I don’t think we need a JWWM official S3 order or anything – it’s all about fun and what works for us as we view Lee and Amanda’s journey. I agree, that there is no right and wrong answer – it’s a 30 year old tv show!
Hi BJo I really appreciate your advice here – thanks for the suggestion!!
See my reply to HappyCamper – I think Happy Camper has offered a brilliant solution 🙂
I agree with you, walking through wizard and then OTL would be the best way to go – but I think we really want to keep going with the walk. And I am not really motivated to convince anyone of anything…. but.. for those of us wanting to explore the order of the two episodes before making a decision – I think a revisit of OTL would be a good idea – so again, see my reply to HappyCamper.. I’ll do up a revision post of OTL.. just a brief one.
I am not sure how different my posts of OTL would have been.. maybe we can discuss that after wizard is finished too! 🙂
I really like Learjet’s idea of offering up different theories in a post – and I am not surprised you like that – I do too.. I think it’s our scientific background haaaa 🙂
but.. I think there is no right or wrong answer, and no way to disprove someone’s hypothesis (ie. Preferred story)- we can always find an explanation for anyone who offers a reason why the order we like won’t work! Aaand I’m not going to attempt to change anyone’s mind. But an open exploration of ideas? I’m up for that..
As I read your comment, I had a thought. I agree Lee is off kilter for all of the reasons you mentioned. But can you imagine how even more off kilter he is becoming because he is beginning to really get in touch with these strong emotions for Amanda ( a normal woman with two kids) at the same time that he is thinking that every woman he has known is in danger because of him. He already is super protective of Amanda and the family she represents. plus I think buried inside of him he has a false belief that anything he loves will be ripped away from him and killed. That could compound this off kilter stuff all the more. I know I have said he is done compartmentalizing. But now may be a good time to put that skill to good use. Don’t try to work out the feelings towards Amanda right now. But, yes, acknowledge that it is important to him that she cares and rest in that. The rest will work itself out in time. He is clearing the way for it to grow with the work he is doing now. Hmmm? Is the Scarecrow using his brain?
Beautifully expressed Morley!
AAAAAAnd I know you probably won’t be thrilled to hear this (LOL) but this whole comment of yours -for me- fits perfectly with wizard going first.. and then Lee having insomnia in the opening of OTL.. he has lots of stuff to deal with for sure 🙂 I agree he hasn’t got the mental/emotional resources right now to deal with Amanda and all that entails (which is why he illogically sent her home!)
Can I comment on that??? Or will it sidetrack the discussion?
I’ll just go for it…. to me, if Lee was to respond to that fear and off kilter feeling caused by his growing awareness of his feelings for Amanda, especially after this scene and all the black books and the shame and guilt it appeared he was experiencing connected to them, adding to that the circumstances of this case and Amanda’s beautiful and well received affirmation of how special the real Lee is (and she did that in an undemanding and open way, not trying to pull a reaction or commitment from him), if he was to respond by engaging in a dating relationship that had potential for normal and serious, then it would take away the poignancy of what I see happening in this scene. Sorry for the terrible sentence structure (BJo 😉 ). And sorry for not waiting for an answer on whether or not I should forge ahead with that. It would sit on my brain all day, if I didn’t write that. 😀
Sing it Sister! So much of what is really special about Wizard would have the shine completely taken off it if the events and Lee’s behaviour in OTL were yet to happen.
To me, what we see in Wizard so far – Lee’s emotion, increasing maturity, and growing awareness of just how special Amanda is to him – could only happen after they have both experienced the events and emotions of OTL.
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I agree Kiwismh, this all makes so much more sense to me if OTL precedes Wizard. We could probably discuss this for 30 more years and I would be just as adamant. Hmmmm, does that mean I’m resistant to change? Or just stubborn guilty grin as I grab my helmet and run off to watch WWH giggling madly; too early for wine, chocolate works though;)
I love your self reflection here Jule! 🙂 too funny!!!
You are free to comment as much as you like Morley – I have a few times mentioned how I think something fits with the ep order also… you don’t need my permission – you can write what you like..
I have thrown it out there to encourage readers to keep an open mind as there are two ways to interpret the order – not just the order the episodes are being blogged in.
I had to go with some order – and I hadn’t actually watched wizard when I had to go with an order to blog them (I still haven’t finished watching wizard at this stage!!)
For those who don’t know the background of this whole episode order in early season 3 – Some of us discussed it on Neds – and I went with the overall opinion – as I didn’t watch wizard before blogging it..
I appreciate how everyone contributed to that discussion and helped me go with an order for the first five eps of season 3. I don’t regret utilising your order Morley – and really appreciate you sharing it with us and suggesting it as a way to go.
At the same time, I went with the order keeping an open mind and knowing that as I walked through the episodes I may see things differently and prefer a different order.
So JWWM has blogged in OTL/Wizard order – which maybe influences people’s views of the two episodes.. maybe not.. I don’t know – but I figured it would be in the interests of keeping an open mind and open discussion going if I shared a few alternative interpretations which placed Wizard before OTL.
I am happy to discuss as we go – and am always happy to hear what you think – or anyone else for that matter 🙂
However – I’d prefer not to get into extended discussions of why a scene is better with OTL first or vice versa – because it means we end up discussing the episode order and neglect the actual walk – you know? I am still walking through Wizard not having seen the episode in years – and want to focus on the episode more so than the episode order – for now..
I won’t tell someone what to write about [other than don’t jump ahead 😉 ha!]
I would suggest if we want to share how we see something fits with our view of the ep order: go for it – share away – but try and keep extended explanations for after we’ve actually walked through wizard – when we will be able to fully explore the episode we are currently walking through.
Hope that makes sense!
So I’m not good at analysis but I think this scene might be THE pivotal moment in their personal relationship. Yes, there were moments in OTT and in the two episodes that follow (shouldn’t say that! naughty) but I think this is the moment that Lee truly lets Amanda in.
Yep!!! Bang!! Crash!!! hear that?? that’s them walls crumbling down!!! 🙂
Hey learjet.. it’s early for you no? 🙂
Agreed!!! it’s huge.. OTL? weeeeell.. some would argue OTL hasn’t happened yet when this scene happens!! 🙂
[To blog the episodes we had to go with some order – but remember the airing order had wizard first-not that this makes Wizard definitely first, but that there will be different opinions about this 🙂 ]
argh.. the two eps that follow??.. can I ask what those two eps are? and we not discuss the content? 🙂
I bet you are busting to discuss ALLA learjet given you transcribed it and would have discovered a huge number of goodies in there!!
Hang in there learjet!!!
I’m only 2 hours behind you I think?? The two episodes I’m referring to are ALLA and Utopia Now (Each have at least one big “moment”. Loving this episode, though!
Ahhh okay was wondering what the second was.. Now: iwsod puts future episodes from her mind
it’s 1030am here.. I was thinking you usually comment when at work in the middle of the day 😉
I’m off to enjoy the sunshine! 🙂
I start work at 630am!! so I am at work
I do think huge walls have come down, but I am not sure all of them are… or maybe Lee doesn’t know how to step over the rubble and come out… can’t decide yet.
Hiya! I don’t think all the walls have come crashing down either. There’s one or two still up.. Maybe my comments read like I did..
Love Valerie’s idea of multiple firewalls!! good one Valerie!! 🙂